There is a difference between a proper injury such as a torn ACL and a micro injury such as the one we are getting when we train. The latter is a normal bodily process, the former isn’t. Testosterone replacement and other banned substances are under certain circumstances legal when there is a legitimate medical use for them. Lance Armstrong, for example, was allowed to take certain drugs with performance-enhancing side-effects in higher doses during his recovery from testicular cancer. But AFAIK even he did not qualify for testosterone replacement therapy.
Agreed.
All I wanted to say, was that it’s not black and white anymore. I think as time goes on and the more we learn and the longer people live with quality, there will be more shades of gray added.
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There is nothing grey about it. If your testosterone levels are within normal range and you order TRT online or find a dubious doctor who is willing to prescribe TRT, you might as well do EPO and heavy anabolic steroid cycles because it is the same thing. Taking a little EPO is the same as taking a lot. You could also find plenty of doctors who are willing to over prescribe opioid pain killers when you don’t really “need” them.
It’s your life and your body. Do what you will, but, don’t come in here and try to rationalize use of TRT by people with normal bloodwork and expect USA Cycling to create a whole different division to cater to your ego. USA Cycling is expressly committed to clean racing as are many of us here.
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- If you read the majority of threads on here then you’ll find that even amongst amateurs cycling does drive some peoples lives.
- I use the word doping because that’s what it is. If a substance is on the UCI banned list, it’s use without a TUE is doping.
- At no point have I been arrogant. I’m expressing a strongly held view. Please refer to the forum guidelines about personal attacks.
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Obviously there are people, amateurs included, whose lives revolve around cycling. However, I don’t think my statement that “cycling doesn’t drive most people’s daily lives” is inaccurate or even at odds with your comment above.
Only in a race subject to UCI rules or sanctioned races. In every other context a physician prescribed and monitored TRT program is a medical intervention. You may not like it or agree with it, but I would hope that you’re not intending to delegitimize ALL hormone replacement therapy as “doping” even when not in a sanctioned competitive environment.
I didn’t intend to call you names or personally attack you so my apologies if you felt attacked. My comment was in reference to your apparent belief that men on TRT should be excluded from cycling at at ANY level. I think that is an arrogant point of view and one the cycling community should move away from. Ideally there should be room for everyone in cycling, granted it would necessarily require new classifications/etc. and be complicated to implement.
He hasn’t said that they should be excluded on any level. He said that they would need a TUE to compete, which is correct.
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Actually he did…
Riders using ANY substance on the UCI/WADA banned list should be excluded from competitive cycling at all levels unless they have a TUE.
If the substances are on the UCI banned substance list, then without a TUE it is considered doping in a competitive environment. If the rider does not compete, then carry on. If they wish to compete then they need a TUE, and for that TUE to be accepted by the relevant federation.
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In this case, I think we agree… 
Let me take another crack at it: I recently listened to an episode of the Recode Decode podcast where this topic was addressed, mostly through the lens of intermittent fasting. But they treated it as part of a larger trend of human self-optimization. The discussion was quite interesting and I’d recommend you listen to it.
I think it’d help your argument if you clearly separated that from necessary medical intervention: if someone’s hormone levels are in the normal range, then this person does not need hormone augmentation. Conversely, if you crash with your bike and break your shoulder, you might need surgery.
What you are describing is very different: you want to optimize and enhance humans. And I have a lot of sympathy for such efforts, because if we really know better, then sure, perhaps we add another substance to the list we fortify our foods with (which has a huge impact on the health of the human population). However, when you optimize, you need to be careful what you optimize for — and this is where most efforts fall short in my opinion.
If you optimize your body solely for cycling to the degree that you might die in your sleep, then in the bigger scheme of things, this is quite bad. Similarly, envision someone with the goal of becoming a great body builder: you push yourself so much that in the best case (where everything is legal and you don’t have erectile dysfunction from all the steroids), you are in the essential fat range — which is really unhealthy for obvious reasons. This obsession just stems from a man-made, i. e. artificial ideal of what the muscles of a body builder should look like. And that is just listing physical factors. Making yourself a faster cyclist can have a negative impact on, say, your job or family. In the grand scheme of things, is that worth it?
In essence, this is the reason why I think doping should be banned: you start optimizing for the wrong things to a degree that is unhealthy in the larger scheme of things. And for that you need rules that are unambiguous and clear. Sometimes these rules have to be arbitrary like speed limits (why is it 30 km/h and not 32 km/h or 28 km/h?). There will be edge cases. If you would allow for, say, testosterone or EPO supplementation, serious athletes would go right to the limit — which is somewhat arbitrary.
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@OreoCookie good post.
Controversial but, along the same lines I was thinking about human vaccines and the change in number and volume schedule since my childhood in the early 70’s. No doubt beneficial but, I can’t help but, wonder at what point does the human body have an adverse reaction to the shear volume we inject into kids/babies? Good intentions but, I feel like the human species has become an experiment for big pharma…
I digress…to relate to this topic, I feel the same with people who want to optimize hormones say with normal blood work. Without careful vetting humans are nothing more than an experiment. And for personal reasons that is what I’m against. Perfectly normal men that I work with who want to be young again taking testosterone. Perhaps it’s the vanity or arrogance or blindly justifying something without knowing considering the risks that gets me. And now an entire industry has evolved to make big $$. A bit like the ridiculous over prescribing of opioids…JMO
This is such a good “grab some popcorn” thread.
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Polite request to keep on topic and not include “other hot topics” that are not related to this post.
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I know right 
I think everything useful has more or less been said within the first 5 or so responses… now it’s just pure entertainment 
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Have you even read what I’ve said? My first sentence in my first post here says exactly what you said.
Was responding to this:
It is black and white. If you have normal bloodwork and are doing TRT, you might as well be doing EPO. It’s the same thing.
Taking hormones solely for the purpose of improving performance in any sport is doping. There is no argument there. We are all in agreement with that.
What I am saying is that there are people who take hormonal therapy to improve their lives and feel younger and more energetic. For the sake of this argument, let’s keep pharma and all conspiracies out. Just take it that whatever they take is safe and effective and supervised for the feeling younger and more energetic. Should those people be excluded from all sports activities? Why put a scarlet letter on their chest and ban them from something that is good and enjoyable? None of us here will come close to winning anything meaningful. Even an amateur national championship means nothing. Just have a no testing division for those people. I am not advocating an open division for the world tour. Most of our races are for fun and meaningless.
Imagine someone in their 60’s in your family who sleeps 14 hours a day. Wakes up, eats, watches tv, maybe mow the lawn and then go back to sleep. Let’s say that with the help of trt, he starts taking walks to the park, and dusts off his old bike again. Starts feeling a little more energetic, eats better, and in a year or so wants to participate in the local 5k? Are we excluding this person? He has absolutely zero chance of even breaking 40min. But I think it’s a shame to not have room for him in something that is good in the world just because we have a blanket statement that all hormone boosting is doping.
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That’s one sentence out of 100’s I’ve written here. To just have it there like that is taking it out of the context of what I was saying. See my paragraph above.
There are several conversations happening here:
- Advocating/rationalizing beginning a TRT with normal bloodwork.
There are doctors out there who will prescribe whatever you ask for. Just because you are under the oversight of a physician, it doesn’t mean what you are doing is legitimate, ethical, or even legal. If you’re into human optimization and you aren’t racing, why stop at some half assed TRT program? Just go all in and really optimize yourself. I’m sure you can find a doctor to put you on whatever program you want.
- Ethics of participating in non-sanctioned sporting events while on medical monitored TRT program.
Fine, go ahead. Just know some people will be bent out of shape if/when they find out. Just go to a club ride and announce you’re on a TRT program and watch the reactions.
- Creating open category events for those using banned substances.
USA Cycling and UCI exists to create a pipeline for the Olympics and professional cycling. Why would they create such divisions? Some other sanctioning body could be created to offer events for this group, but, I don’t think it would get far.
OP was very specific in his post regarding TRT
My opinion is OP should fire his trainer immediately and anyone who has normal blood work and goes on a TRT program to optimize strength and endurance is an idiot.
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This is the attitude that bothers me the most. Some yahoo that thinks they know better than your endocrinologist and thinks the weekly club ride is the Olympic Games. Oh well, they’ll lighten up when they drop me on the first climb anyway 
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