it wasn’t a 10-min test, it was a time-to-exhaustion at 80% of Power at VO2peak:
which happened to be about equivalent of a ~10-min max effort:
the 4x8-min group jumped from ~12 min pre-intervention, to ~23 min post-intervention, or almost 100% improvement as shown in this graphic:
Regarding the 4x4, 4x8, and 4x16min intervals - even Seiler says in the Velonews podcast that the results weren’t statistically significant. I think the graphs show more benefit than they actually produced. He also says that he thought the 8min intervals had the edge because they hit that sweet spot of intensity and length. The 4min ones were very hard (vo2max) and the 16 minutes ones are long.
can’t really get that excited by some of this academic research.
Don’t worry, I got my reality check back in -79 when I did race. I don’t have any aerobic capacity to back up my 1500 w power; it’s a reference to the Strength Training Calculator.
If sweet spot is killing you then something is wrong.
I’m pretty sure my ability to recover is the main issue as I don’t get enough sleep. Z2/z3 is a lot easier to manage. I might give sweet spot another go once I’ve finished TBMV2, hopefully I can take it outside as spring isn’t far here in southern Sweden.
Edit: I’ll have a look at the Kolie-thread.
yes, figuring out how much one can absorb is really the key information. FTP, TSS or whatever metric, forget it, how much you can absorb is what should be the guiding principle
and I’m also always a little bit surprised when people say SST (or whatever other training model) drains them. Why not adjust accordingly? Reduce the intensity (most people do SST to intense anyway) or reduce the length of an interval. Or perhaps take even a rest day. Following a plan blindly without given consideration to the body’s feedback is a little bit dumb.
And I just got a nice reminder of this myself. One session can go great but it can also wreck all the following days.
I’m slowly moving into build phase, first A-race is in 7 weeks.
I: 4 days easy, business trip to Sweden. These are always my rest weeks/days
II:
III: The second ride was too hard, I was tired for 3 days. The intensity session was not really successful. And I decided for another rest days. Basically, two hard training days caused 4 days of rest requirement
IV: this time I tried it more moderate: no threshold/HIT on Saturday but SST with “stuff” into the red zone. And the endurance ride on Sunday was not as intense, still at around AeT but shorter. And with more low wattage interruptions
Yesterday rest day, some HIT later today. I will see how my legs feel.
And this is a nice confirmation why pros train like they train. This riding long with “some” stuff. Each session is not that tough on its own but they have to consider what they can absorb over a week or a month. And this is so much in line with what Filiol, Lorang and Co “preach”
I think that when you are new to all this and haven’t a clue about the physiology you do what the plan says and assume that the guys at TR know what they are doing. It’s only after being on here and listening to a ton of podcasts have I learnt to adjust things accordingly. When I started with TR on the SSBLV it absolutely killed and demotivated me. I’ve since found out that I am a real fast twitcher although I’m trying to change it as much as I can.
I know exactly what you mean. We retirees do a 4ish hour flat ride every Friday across the Mosses to the coast (average 17mph or so). Every now and then a few of the younger guys from the club turn up and it turns into a hammerfest. Of course when I try to keep up it absolutely wrecks me for 3 or 4 days afterwards. We have though learnt and now form 2 groups and meet at the same cafe.
went great, came well rested out of the last block.
Lesson learned or better: lesson confirmed. I’m still in the trial-and-error phase with how much I can absorb. The arrival of build phase started a new trial-and-error phase. For pure aerobic training I have a fairly good understanding now what I can do. This is really the major change for me this season. Thanks to my Strava-pro-hacks!
Fully understand what you mean, I lost 2 winters when I was new powermeter user. Dumb as I am I believed those 4min vo2max intervals had to be ridden at 120%. Add the typical inflated FTP. Never made it to a 4th interval. And I kept on trying, vo2max is 120%, right?! So dumb.
However, we’re all grown ups and responsible for what we do to our bodies. You don’t dig yourself into hole from one day to the others. This goes gradually. And even a beginner should see the signs. If you’re ignorant to these it’s your own fault. Perhaps TR could do a better job of stressing listening to these signs, I don’t know, I’ve never seen any of their plans. Never used one when I had a subscription. Perhaps. And I don’t think it’s justfied to say that SST drains one per-se. Or any other training model.
Same with me. Fast twitcher. Ramp test overestimates FTP. SSBLV2 and Build have more threshold workouts than SS.
This is a combination that leads to workouts being too intense, and a mix of either a completed workout + feeling destroyed, or a “failed” workout.
It took me 2 seasons to figure it out, and now I’m designing my own plans - informed by the TR plans, but changing workouts that I think are too intense. Basically, I’m using HR to cap longer SS interval sessions, and am avoiding threshold sessions except for as I approach my peaking periods (will be adding 4x6-8mins).
These are both good points. Maybe I’m too new to trainerroad, but I feel like there should be a way to coordinate your plan with your current CTL. CTL doesn’t seem to be talked about too much here, but it would at least give a good baseline on to what kind of load you can handle, instead of purely how much time you have available. This would probably help with managing intensity and the demotivating feeling. A few months ago, I started SSB HV, and I thought I had the fitness to handle the loads, but I felt there was just too many 100+ TSS rides and I couldn’t seem to recover well enough. I feel like now I can, but I have switched things up, so maybe I will go back one day.
They also have superior physiologies (and probably mentalities) and are not ‘time crunched’. So “riding long with “some” stuff” is going to work for them but won’t be applicable for a 50 year-old with only 6 hours/wk to train.
Agreed. The amount of threads on this subject is astounding. There isn’t a single perfect or best training methodology.
Unless you’re trying to sell a book. 
This is true. I own Carmichael’s Time Crunched Cyclist book–gave it a read, but have never adopted anything from it as I found TR to be just as good and easier to follow.
My best season was built using the CTS plans on Strava premium, and following the principles in that book.
The best methodology is the one you can stick to.
Due to “life” I only want to dedicate 7-9hrs per week. For me this rules out alot of LSD methodology as it’s not enough time to see gains. If I tried to dedicate 15-20hrs per week I would fail to hit the target most weeks.
Therefore I follow mid volume + (I add some extra endurance / sweetspot depending on how I feel)
AFAIK, Seiler isn’t trying to sell a book. Maybe it’s in the works? I bought Carmichael’s book. I never implemented any of it because I know it’s the kind of training program that would quickly dig me into the black hole. I’m also not time crunched.
I think we are all a bunch of dumb apes. 
It’s very easy for humans to fall into the “more is better” ideology with anything. It’s not obvious how long slow riding can make us faster. Some people hear terms like “junk miles” and it confirms their more is better ideology.
It’s also very hard for people to decouple the FTP number from their self esteem and simply use it as a training tool. You end up with a lot of overstating of FTP, latching on to an exceptional 20 minute number produced in a race, never giving up that number, etc.
In the end it comes down to dose and response. You can do that polarized and recover from your 1-2 interval sessions by riding super easy or you can do a time crunched plan where you ride 3-4 days per week and rest the other days. In either case, you need to know your body and know when to pull the plug and not dig a deep hole of fatigue.
It was a metaphor for whatever you’re “selling” to boost your visibility. Maybe Seiler is trying to seal his tenure by cementing his findings in popular/modern sports.
Those “super easy” rides are still training. Do a 5-6hr ride and that 5th or 6th hour isn’t going to feel like recovery.
Maybe I’m more adventurous, why not give it a try? About 4 months ago I tried the classic Stoggl/Sperlich 9-week polarized intervention and discovered that I needed more training load in my legs (“more base”) before doing the plan. With CTS plans I wasn’t able to complete all the intervals but was able to raise fitness to all-time high on 6-8 hours/week and roughly 500-600 TSS/week (with plenty of grey zone in training distribution). During the most intense loading weeks I did 2 weeks on and took almost the entire 3rd week off. I’ve put various season data into Alan Couzens calculator and determined I’m at the lower end of medium responders that he classifies as typically requiring longer training builds and responding well to a mix of intensities.
