This is where the discussion stays in the circle jerk. Seiler never advocated 5 or 6 hour rides. If you listen to what the man says, you obviously need to recover after a hard interval session. However you do that is up to you.
Fast Talk just put up their 100th episode - another episode with Seiler:
When you listen to them, it’s all very reasonable and there is a lot of cross over with other established training methods. It’s not super regimented and dogmatic. 5 hour rides are not required.
Seiler would probably tell us to ‘solve the equation’ for ourselves.
I could probably follow Time Crunched now. Similarly, I was battling fatigue last year. I’d do hard efforts or a hard group ride and while I’d perform well, hit new PRs, I’d be shattered and would need two days of rest. Seiler style base last year brought me up to another level. After 6-8 weeks of riding slow and doing one intensity session per week, I was at a higher level of endurance and breaking all my PRs with a 20 point increase in FTP.
My mistake last year was doing that base for 12 weeks. I don’t think it was needed. After the base, I added in some weekly tempo/sst intevals to my schedule and scaled back the LSD a little bit. Over the 5 or 6 months I got another 20 point FTP increase.
I just finished my base block this year. I did 8 weeks, took some rest and I’m now starting an interval block. I’m planning on working on the 4x8min. I did one week of those (3x8) but this week, it was so windy that I did hill repeats instead plus a few other shorter intervals - around the same total interval time. I felt similarly wasted. After the first week I was flying on the group ride. I’m seeing new power PRs and hanging with riders I couldn’t not formerly stay with.
I haven’t exactly decided but I think I’m going to enforce a more strict 3:1 on/off schedule. I think this is where I’ve been deficient in the past - not managing fatigue/recovery and adaptation well enough. I also wonder about 2:1. I know that after two weeks I will feel like I still have a lot of gas in the tank so I’ll want to do more. I’ll want to do more after 3 weeks but I’ll force myself to take it easy.
FWIW I just finished my first 3-week block of 9-11 hour/week FasCat sweet spot 2 and feel fine. It can be a fine line walking the 3:1 and 2:1 on/off schedule. Based on the past, I’m definitely going 2:1 when the vo2max work begins.
I’ve listened to Seiler and his position is that pro and elite training can be pushed down. I’m not of that opinion, for various reasons. My first point is that people respond differently as per the Alan Couzens’ “What type of athlete are you” blog post. And Mader’s research in the 80s led to training advances by Olbrecht (famous swimming coach) and Weber (INSCYD) that use Mader’s insights to tailor training based on individual responses to a block of training.
If Seiler is the Jay-Z of physiology as Fast Talk claims, I’d like to know which pro teams he is actively working with. Weber and INSCYD appear to be building success with some pro teams. Dismissing “the grey zone” and promoting what comes across as one-size-fits-all “polarized method” is more and more feeling like dogma.
After my 4/5 hour sub LT1 rides my legs feel like they are on fire in the middle of the night. Definitely not recovery rides. In fact I feel more fatigued after them than when I’ve done a real mixed intensity ride of the same duration.
@G650 ok one last post and I’m leaving this thread forever LOL
@redlude97 not misrepresenting anything, just repeating Seiler clearly articulated positions from Fast Talk podcasts 51 and 54. The Fast Talk guys love him, and your Slowtwitch link made me almost spit out my coffee in an LOL moment:
thats pyramidal not polarized. I’m aerobically limited (mid to low vo2max) and doing more and more aerobic endurance riding to slowly and patiently build the aerobic engine But I’m not “doing polarized” the way its been described on Fast Talk podcasts 51 and 54.
Did you find a benefit from those two hard days though?
One thing i have found is that in the early season, if i block my weekends into mini training camps, at first, it takes a few days to bounce back. But when I do, i bounce back stronger.
I would have known after next week but they cancelled my first race of the season. Northern Italy …
As said before, this is just the beginning of my build period. So far I’ve blocked only “intense” aerobic sessions, like END, END+ and tempo. And there it was noticable how resilience grew over the weeks. 3x4-5h at AeT/Tempo in a row, no problem. Now is a new calibration phase with more threshold/vo2max work.
Endurance is a pretty wide range, END+ is something right at AeT, consistently throughout a ride. However, since you don’t ride in ERG mode outdoors you always get into Tempo as well. Furthermore, I look more for heart rate with END. Plenty of spiros under my belt, I have a good understanding of where AeT/VT1 is. And it is a moving target, not something with a fixed wattage.
I truly believe that in order to push AeT further up you actually have to stress it. Just riding very well below won’t do it (been there). Going at there and a little bit above. But of course, the tricky part is how you balance it with the other training. Now with build phase I see that I should restrict “+” with these rides. However, I intend to throw in some END blocks just to mix it up. I don’t want to train the same pattern for too long this season. Variability! Within sessions, withing blocks, within weeks/months.
Agreed that it is good to spend some time around the lower threshold. When in good shape, i tend to subdivide the endurance zone into three, and this means there is plenty of room to play with. Then do long “intervals” of 30-120min around the lower threshold (AeT). Often with “other stuff”, ie varying cadences. As you said, when riding outside there will be the occasional dip into low tempo, especially power-wise, but so be it.
Nonetheless, most of my endurance riding occurs some 10-15% below the AeT. Seems to work, all in all.
I know you’ve gone from here forever but thanks for sharing those. They summarize clearly a couple of his other posts on the same subject. Interesting and perhaps a bit more useful than most of what has been posted in this thread.
Likes to go fast, sometimes has a hard time holding back. Often less patient (and sometimes less consistent) in their approach as they haven’t needed to be to get results in the past.
Here is my fast responder story. A guy in my club who was formerly a Cat2 seemed to just get fit out of nowhere. Two months ago, even two weeks ago I was faster than him. Now, he’s flying. He’s not even racing anymore. Just moving into his spring, ex-cat2, fitness … quickly.
But I’m not “doing polarized” the way its been described on Fast Talk podcasts 51 and 54.
and ride on 
but thanks for sharing those. They summarize clearly a couple of his other posts on the same subject. Interesting and perhaps a bit more useful than most of what has been posted in this thread. 
