Because if you can get faster on 8, why not? If you CAN afford to invest that time in yourself.
I normally ride about 20 hours a week (1000 hours a year for several years in a row). I can invest that much time, why would I want to make it less? Like saying you have money to invest, but you would rather than money sit in your mattress because the money you already invested was enough to meet your goals.
From what I’ve heard, tacking that 30 mins on straight after sweet spot will give more benefit - basically extended the workout by 30 mins at lower intensity.
Or even extended 2 workouts by 15 mins each
I think that the lower the hours, the smarter you have to be about everything. A 6 hour per week guy with a smart plan will probably get a lot faster than an 8 hour per week guy that just goes out and rides.
It’s more like what’s the maximum I can carve out, which is a bit different from how much I would invest if I had no commitments.
And that is kind of dependent on the cost benefit analysis eg will 2 more hours yield gains worth what’s given up.
Hence the what’s the minimum commitment people see to get to 4w/kg.
But if you HAD 8 hours, would you choose to train for 6 then sit and watch TV for the other two, or would you train for 8 hours?
Again, going back to my money analogy. You have $8000 you CAN invest, why invest $6000? If you only have $6000 to invest, then make the best of it that you can. If you have $8000 to invest, but want to spend $2000 on a vacation (aka, watching TV), then that is your call to make, and no one can make that decision for you.
AGain, I have 20ish hours a week to invest in myself. I COULD probably be just as fast on 10 hours with smart training. But, I like riding my bike, I have the time, why would I just sit around and do nothing with those 10 hours? Why would I want to do something I am LESS interested in doing with those 10 hours?
IF you have other things you want to do with your time, then do those other things. Stop asking the question of “What is my minimum investment” and start asking “What is the investment I can make?”.
Ask yourself what you are willing to put in, and make the best of it. If you are willing and able to invest 40 hours, then go for it. If you are able to invest 40, but only want to do 4, then only do 4. Stop asking the question backwards. Figure out what you are willing to invest, and train the best you can with that answer.
Different point of view: how much training to do I need for a group ride that is X hard for me?
Building endurance if you see yourself fatiguing on the bunch ride will be different than working on intensity to be able to play game within the group. Your sport history will dictate if you are brushing up (getting back in shape) or this is breaking new fitness territory (the later being much harder).
I’ve had plenty of endurance in me, focusing on hour long races this year and literally doing nothing but Gendarme +6 three times a week (4hr/wk?).
Making progress on my biweekly ramp test every time so far (part of that is getting back in shape, I’ve only broken into “new” numbers on the last ramp test). 29yr & ~5w/kg
Training more isn’t necessarily better. It’s good you have a focus on the result you want, don’t feel like you have to give up every hour of time and potentially sacrifice other pleasures to get faster. My average training week is 6-7 hours when I’m doing training, more when riding for pleasure when my schedule allows it.
If a guy born outside of Chernobyl can drink and smoke every day and still get over 4w/kg at close to 80kg, I’m sure you can too and not have to commit every free minute to riding.
Progress also takes time, you can make quick gains initially but it will get to a point where once the low hanging fruit is gone you just need time to develop further. My progress has slowed considerably and it’ll be a few more years till I can hang with the local elites, I’m close now but not quite there
If we talk a span of 4-10 hours, I firmly believe more volume is always better. If we talk 12h+ …different story.
I’m not 100% onboard with your analogies. For the last two years I had the time to ride 20 hours per week but I didn’t. First, I don’t like doing lots of solo 3-4-5 hour rides that much. Second, I would have probably been too fatigued to make any progress riding that much. Third, I wouldn’t have had the time sit on the couch all afternoon after these rides.
The highlight of my week was a 2 hour Saturday group ride so that is what I was training for. If I were training for Kanza or Leadville, I might have prioritized some 20 hour weeks.
Also, if I wanted to be as fast as I could be I don’t think 20 hours a week of riding would actually get me there. I think 8-10 hours per week or riding, 2 hours per week of gym/core/general fitness, and maybe a couple hours per week of yoga might be about optimal.
That may be your opinion, but not necessarily fact for every athlete out there, especially if that athlete is going to commit that time incorrectly and burn out.
Quality > Quantity, to a point of course
Because YOLO investors get burned like someone I worked with who shorted every penny of GME he could afford and is now deciding whether he should take out a home equity loan or cash out his 401k to pay back 360k he owes us
More =/= better
If you quote me, please don’t put my words out of context.
I said more volume is always better if we’re talking 4-10h weekly volume
assuming he’s no construction worker or adds runs, swims, CrossFit, whatever. I of course presuppose he is also responsible with intensity.
Under this premises “more volume is always better” is by no means “opinion” but fact., especially if we are talking someone who isn’t even close to his potential yet.
So if for 4-10 hours a week, is 10 hours a week of Vo2 every week better than 4 hours of proper work? No, of course not, as you said, that would only be true if the person is responsible with intensity, so not ALWAYS
Purely as an N = 1.
I’m 38, 74kg and although always played team sports as a kid but never athletically gifted (2nd row in rugby, goalkeeper in football, last in any Sprint race ever done!)
Started cycling about 5 years ago with TR and currently sit at FTP of 315w so about 4.3.
For last 18 month’s I’ve ridden 3 times a week (1x 60mins, 1 x 75 mins, 1 x 90 mins) total of 3.75hr per week. I also run 3 times a week for total of 3.5 hrs
I never train more or less than that (accept recovery weeks when do bit less).
However I’m VERY consistent, not missed a planned ride or run in 18 months. Apart from races I’ve ridden outside only 3 times in the last 12 months.
C’mon … you are too smart to not knowing that we of course agree on that. I believe we agree 100% anyhow …
I’m talking about following a LV/MV plan and tacking on as much LIT as possible to every session without compromising recovery or the next workout. I’m basically singing Nate’s Gospel here 
With zone 2 it’s the duration that’s pushing improvements. So if you’ve only got 30 mins add it to another ride you are already doing.
Thank you so much for adding the sentence about running. This is what is forgotten so often …
So basically LV plan with added 3-4hours LIT 
The number varies a lot. I have friends in their 40s who train >10 hours/week, some of them with coaches, and never get to 4W/kg. I have friends in their 40s who average <3 hours/week and are >4W/kg. Genetics play a huge part, as does athletic history, as does personal discipline and lifestyle. I would guess you’re not at the “freakishly genetically lucky” end of the spectrum as if you were then 18 months of LV plans would likely have you up at ~4w/kg or more already! Hopefully you’re not at the “4w/kg is never going to happen” end of the spectrum either. But really the only way to find out what it takes to get you to 4W/kg (assuming it’s possible) is to keep going on that journey. See how far you can get on LV, then decide how much more you’re prepared to give.
Other point to note is that “fast” is relative! There are always faster people, and there is always more you can do to get faster. More volume, more sleep, more strength work, better nutrition. The key to long term cycling happiness in my opinion is finding your own personal sweet spot between cycling performance and the sacrifices involved. If you progress from “riding comfortably in the pack” to “being one of the strongest in the pack” is that fast enough? Or are you the sort of person who at that point is going to be looking for a new pack of stronger riders where you start over as one of the weaker ones and have to work your way up again?
Perhaps I was a bit too picky about the verbatim, but I get what you mean
It’s always a sliding scale. Literally ANYONE can invest 20+ hrs a week into training if they want. The question is what lengths are you willing to go to?
Give up friday night beers with friends? Sleep 6 hrs instead of 8? Cut back on TV? Make your wife run more errands? Divorce wife? Cut job back to part time and move into smaller home?
The minimum time question is important, but I think a more relevant, nuanced question would be “where do diminishing returns start happening?” That way you can get an idea of what sacrifices are possible and/or necessary.
Not so nitpick, but literally not everyone CAN invest 20+ hrs a week. Do not apply experience of your own luck or privilege to others so quick.
Are you talking about training or riding, because they are vastly different. For example, I make time for 9-12+ hours on the bike each week. During the winter, I devote almost 100% of that time to training, which in my case means following a prescriptive training plan my coach has set out with very minimal deviation. During my winter training phase, I have sacrificed the fun rides/races my friends do (Zwift and fat biking) in favor of training. Early summer to late fall however, I devote much less time to prescriptive training, and instead start to enjoy and reap the benefits of my training through unstructured rides and races.
Could I be faster by focusing 100% on my training year round? Absolutely, but what the hell would be the point? I train so I can win races (though we have none of those anytime soon), be the fastest possible in group rides when situation calls for it, and be able to ride at faster paces but lower intensity. I train so I can enjoy my rides when I finally can ride outside.
Unstructured rides may be helpful to OP, may not help him reach his 4wkg goal, or may actually hinder his progress. When we talk about investing to reach a goal, I think “structured training” as the best way to grow, but that’s strictly based on my personal experience.
As for the investing money analogy - the difference between for most people between investing money and investing training was clear in 1999 and 2008 
Also, plenty reasons why not to invest all your money, just because you can, but that isn’t at all relevant for the current discussion.