Kaiser +2 vs Dade +1 RPE based

I have been using TR since winter in a combination of inside (with TR) and outside rides (RPE based). Right now I am a LV Build program trying to raise a bit my FTP.

Last week in the plan I had Dade +1, a VO2 max workout with 9 intervals at 120% FTP (2.5 min long) and this week in the plan it is Kaiser +2, a VO2 max workout with 9 intervals at 118% FTP (3 min long). The weather was so fantastic last week that I decided to ride Dade +1 outside in a short local hill that fitted quite well with a 2.5 min climb. My surprise is when I read that Kaiser +2, which is a really similar workout when it comes to number of intervals, lenght of the intervals, rest time and %FTP has a suggested RPE of 9 when Dade +1 has a RPE of 8.

Some details for the analysis:
For Dade +1: 3x2.5 minutes at RPE 8 with 4 minutes easy between intervals.
For Kaiser +2: 3x3 minutes at RPE 9, with 4 minutes recovery between intervals.

Why the RPE is one unit higher? The difference between making an exercise at RPE 8 or 9 is really substancial. Has someone step on similar issues in other workouts?

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As someone who recently fought Kaiser I can state without a doubt that the extra 30s is what makes it a killer.

The intensity is more or less the same with ‘only’ a difference of 2% but the duration in this respect is 20% longer per interval! When working at these intensities 30s is like an extra day in the outside world ( cause Einstein’s relativity obviously :joy: ).

Or, in total terms, Dade has 22:30 of total time @ 120% whereas Kaiser has 27:00 at 118%. Don’t know about you but I’d take Dade over Kaiser any day :relaxed:


This - 2,5 minutes in date is quite “easy” when it comes to VO2 max. With these 2,5 minutes without a hard start you spend maybe around 1 minute at VO2 max (so proper breathing and gasping for air). It is more taxing for legs than for my breathing. 3 minutes is way harder - 30s makes a lot difference.
You also have to remember that VO2 max is not a power but a state - so even Kaiser is lower power, you spend probably more time at Vo2 max due interval lenght.


Thank you very much for fast response. I just made Kaiser on the trainer and I can tell that those last extra 30 seconds were super hard to finish and maintaining the power steady. :upside_down_face:

I totally understand that outside RPE based trainings have drawbacks. I just wonder how the RPE should be understood, is the RPE how you feel at the end of the interval? Or the total overall feeling during the interval? For example, during an interval in Kaiser I would estimate RPE 5 in the beggining, 1 minute passed would be something around 7, at the end of the second minute RPE 8 and at the end of the interval (3 minutes) RPE9.

I assume your talking about perceived exertion here - that can be effected by lots of factors - fatigue, sleep etc. Kaiser+2 just has a higher TSS and IF than Dade+1 - as mentioned the extra 30s really bites and 2% decrease in watts is nothing…plus you get a minute more between sets - give me Dade+1 any day! :grimacing:

I just finished Kaiser+2 in the trainer and it was definitively much harder than Dade+1 (which I made it outside without power meter and assessing using RPE and hearth rate).

Nevertheless, the same questions arises, what does TR mean with “3 minutes at RPE 9”? My feeling of RPE is not 9 during those 3 minutes, just at the end of them.

I think that answers it. The crucial point of the workout should feel like a 9. For vo2 max, that’s probably the last minute or so of each set. For sweet spot and a 7 RPE, the entire 15 minutes isn’t going to fee like a 7. Usually the first 5 (especially in early sets) feels very manageable, then progressively becomes a 7, then maybe an 8 for the last little bit.

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To be honest with these short efforts it very hard to say RPE during interval. For flat VO2 max like these your feelign seems ok - first minute is when you are burning your anaerobic reserves, then real VO2 max start to kicks in. Hard start VO2 max are completely different - they are RPE 9 for the whole interval :wink:

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Not looking forward for such intervals!

Yeah but they give you the most in terms of eliciting VO2 max, so more pain but a lot better gains :slight_smile: you can also try rattlesnake workout.

Yep RPE is variable…that is I suppose why I don’t use it and use watts and % of FTP.

Using Train Now (great feature) I decided to look for a 1:15 endurance workout, and decided on Whorl. When I set it to outside, it showed as 1:52, just a hair under 50% more time. Hs anyone else experienced this big a change in taking a workout from inside to outside?

Yeah this is a thing that happens on most of the endurance workouts when you switch to outside. It’s based off the idea that outside workouts aren’t as efficient or steady as indoors with coasting, stop signs, etc. I tend to not agree with this so I will go for the original power target until I hit the prescribed tss when going outside. It’s usually very close to the original workout duration.

IMO if it takes twice the time to get the same tss in on an endurance ride outside vs inside then you are doing something seriously wrong. 10% (maybe as high as 20%) longer I could understand but 100% is wild.

This topic has been widely discussed amongst the forum, where a lot of athletes have expressed outside workout extensions. Here’s where we’re at!

Comprehensively: Focus on the intervals and the work itself, after that: don’t worry about hitting the full workout time, and we’ll work on updating those after we finish up the current higher priority releases. :sunglasses:

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