Something else to consider if you were to go strickly off data. Recently I dug myself into a hole by piling on too many VO2 TR workouts plus high intensity track workouts (running) and too much milage. I got to a point were my heart rate wasnāt responding. Week after week I was still hitting workouts but it got to a point where even a 3km easy recovery run felt miserable. The only metric telling me something was wrong was my percieved effort. When a 3km recovery run (even at a pace much slower than my typical recovery run) with a low heart rate felt like an all out effort at high elevation I determined something was wrong and it was time to back off. But if a machine was looking at that it could have assumed everything was fineā¦successfully completed workout with low heart rateā¦SUPER PASS!!!
You describe myself perfectly.
I dont do well with RPE. I really dont feel pain that others describe when they ride. As an example- I dont feel a burn in the legs. When I fail its the muscles unable to work anymore.
Again, it is an added measure. The data of the workout is used in conjunction with the survey to adjust the training. And while you say weāre talking data and not a coach, thatās not the point of AT. AT is being designed to be like a coach for picking workouts, so they are giving it the data you would give to a coach after each session, and that includes perceived effort.
Note as well that Nate mentioned there are hundreds of ML features at work reviewing each workout. Subjective surveys are only part of that. The raw data makes up the bulk most likely.
As for progression, static plans arenāt affective for everybody. Perhaps youāre right in the middle of the curve and they all work for you, but there are hundreds if not thousands of users who do not share that experience, myself being one of them. Having the surveys means the progression for VO2 can finally actually meet my abilities where they are rather than making me reach far beyond my capabilities every workout because the static progression is too intense for me to complete. That feeling is demoralizing, but AT has made VO2 something possible for me to comeplete in my plans now.
Thanks 
I think we just value RPE differently. I would rather use a measureable data source ie heart rate the RPE.
I am far from a typical user. I started in my late 50s unable to do anything for 30 years. Surgery resolving my chronic disease and cycling changed my life. I had no muscle stamina. Three years of riding to progress up to an hour ride without being broken the next day was a challenge. Two years of physio to help me is what it took to actually be able to ride without getting physically beat up. Immunosuppressive medication likely doesnt help much either. Far from typical. I found the TR plans too intense but I can do them now but they all need tweaking for me to deal with recovery.
As you describe VO2 progressionā¦I had the same issue.
I set an outside workout, but was unable to sync my Bolt to load the workout for some reason. I just did a regular ride, and TR seems to have associated the planned workout and my ride even though I didnāt run the workout via the Bolt.
And again, a nature break along with some pictures and a headset adjustment, lead to a āStruggleā survey. Iām still annoyed with that, but maybe that is just part of the outside connection? I donāt know what if any option we have to actually get good & positive results from an outside ride?
Besides that, when selecting āOtherā and adding my note, that works as expected. The issue I see is that the info recorded in that comment section may become invisible long term.
Right now, I can only see anything more than āOtherā when I open and edit the survey response. This option disappears in a week. I wonder if or how I will be able to see this or any similar note in the future?
So if Iām just following a Base, Build, Specialised phase Iām not going to get any adaptations to workoutās on AT unless I specifically set a goal for later in the year using the Plan Builder?
I wasnāt aware of this and am just finishing up Sweetspot Base HV II and wondered why I had no alterations to workouts over the last two weeks since I was given access to AT.
Starting Build next week so will be good to have this confirmed.
You donāt have to place a goal on the calendar to use Plan Builder. You can just let it apply a plan from your desired start date and set and end date for your training, all that without an event on the calendar.
It may be best to delete your current plans, run PB and set the start date as the same as when you started your current SSB1. Doing this should allow you to have the typical Base, Build & Specialty progression, like you have right now.
Then the subjective feedback of āthis is too intenseā is crucial in giving you a workout that fits your abilities but still elicits the response youāre looking for. Thatās why these surveys are helpful. You even note you tweak things to deal with recovery. Thatās exactly what AT is looking to do as well through the use of those survey responses. So in reality, you already are doing the same thing as those surveys to give yourself more appropriate work that makes the next workout doable. To make sure AT can do the same, you have to provide it that data point.
Thanks for this.
What prompts you to have an easy day then?
Overall fatigue level. When I notice that the energy level isnt quite there. So three weeks of build is too much for me. I know that from prior experience. Legs feel sluggish and the third week may have a ride that fails. Stick in four days of a break with easier rides ie Baxter then go do the workout I failedā¦and I will be back onto the plan.
But the ride that failed is the feedback. You dont need an RPE to say too intense I couldnt finish or too intense I had to dial it back. The data shows I couldnt do it as prescribed.
I really think we are saying the same thing. I just say its in the data and the RPE is additional data that doesnt add to my success or failure.
Just to further clarify, there are three different surveys you could be served, and only when you pass do you get the RPE survey. The others have more nuanced response options. Workouts are classified based on raw data as a Super Pass, Pass, Struggle Pass, Failure, and Cut Short. Once classified on that data, you are provided one of the following surveys. So to your point, it is taking a black and white approach at the start but is seeking additional info to recognize additional patterns.
- If you succeeded in the workout, you get the 1-5 scale survey asking how hard it was.
- If you complete the workout but drop the power, skip intervals, take long rests, etc., it will have a survey with different response options asking for why you think you struggled. This could be because you did it before breakfast and didnāt feel fueled, or you did it during the work day and couldnāt focus due to heightened stress, or because you got poor sleep the night before.
- If you do not complete the workout and pull the plug. This also has different response options because a blown tire on your outside workout ending it early is wayyy different than pulling the plug because it was too intense.
Hopefully that gives some additional clarity. As I mentioned in a comment a ways up, you can listen to Nateās explanation and the teamās intent behind the surveys. Nate does a way better job of explaining it and youāll be able to see what items are listed in each survey:
Maybe you wouldnāt need to get to this feeling before easing back a bit then if you allowed AT to modify your workouts which precede this (enforced?) break.
Sounds like youāve convinced yourself AT isnāt for you anyway which is fine.
I can vouch for an N=1 of AT helping me survive the regular 3:1 Work to Recovery week schedule of Build this year. In the last two years, I modified my schedule to 2:1 Work to Recovery week schedule while following the default TR plans. That change was the only thing that allowed me to finish those default workout progressions at my age and training history.
Prior to that modification, I was destroyed in the 3rd week with more failures than is productive. Now with AT, it reduced from the regular plan workouts to ones that actually matched my fitness and abilities at the moment. As such, the 3:1 timing worked fine for me which has not been the case in recent years.
That does raise an interesting question though. What elicits greater training response, at least short term? Doing three weeks until you basically hit your limit, then need two weeks of easier ridesā¦ or doing two weeks of full bore, then two weeks of moderate sessions before the final rest week.
I donāt know the answer, but I do suspect that mental state would have a big part to play in it.
I am not in the beta. I am anxious to try it but it works better for me in the fall when I get back on a plan. Again my understanding is AT at this point isnāt dealing with recovery
Correct me if I am wrong here, but I want to understand your thought process. It sounds to me like youāre doing high intensity work. That intensity of workout requires more recovery between workouts than is prescribed in TR plans, and you want to make sure thatās reflected with AT. Is that correct?
If so, I offer the following alternate though process. By reducing the intensity of your workouts to a more manageable progression for your abilities, the prescribed recovery between workouts in the plan will theoretically be correct and you wonāt need that extra recovery time (much like what @mcneese.chad mentioned in his post about recovery weeks). In this sense, the intensity youāre experiencing during the workouts may be too high for your current abilities and your riding history, so it needs to be reduced. A reduction in intensity (whether interval length, power targets, or what have you) could be all that is needed to ensure the recovery between workouts are effective for you. And it will do all that while still providing the proper stimulus for your training.
Maybe focus on breath as an indicator? Think back across the ride and at any point where you huffing/puffing and seeing stars - thats āall outā. if you could have sang a song the entire ride its easyā¦