There’s yet another great podcast on Scientific Triathlon. High carb, low carb with Louis Burke. I’m constantly amazed at how many quality podcasts @Mikael_Eriksson manages to bring out. Louise Burke is one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to sports nutrition, so for anyone interested in this subject, it’s definitely worth a listen.
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Thanks for this, will give it a listen. As per my question a little higher in the thread, I’m really keen on finding the right balance between fuelling workouts with carbs, and becoming overly dependent on them.
It’s something I’ve been working on for a long time and I think I manage to get it right 80% of the time. Without working with a nutritionist, its always going to be hard to know if you’re doing the right thing 100% of the time.
My advice would be to stick to the scientific evidence and try to be consistent with what you eat. The basic principles of sports nutrition haven’t changed for quite while. Get the basics right and don’t get lost in the details.
Thanks @Berggeiss. Also worth noting that since the time of our interview one of the follow-up Supernova studies has been replicated with similar results.
Also, from a practical point of view I 100% agree with what you said here:
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I’ve been thinking a lot about this. Like you, my methods and opinions constantly evolve. I had a bit of a eureka moment today, thinking about whether short workouts should be fuelled.
What I realised was this. Your general food intake, and in particular the meal you have 2-4 hours before a ride or workout - that’s fuelling. The gels and energy drink you have on the bike - that’s refuelling.
Once I got that, things started to make more sense. Of course, if your glycogen stores are topped up by sensible pre-ride low-GI carb fuelling, you don’t need to chug energy drink in the first 30-60 minutes of the workout. But once that 30-60 minutes is past, you’re going to need to start replenishing the glycogen burned during it. And then so on and so on, until you finish the workout and you have a recovery drink for the final glycogen top-up.
Which means that for a 60 minute workout, you might indeed have no need for carbs during it. But then have a recovery drink after. Or for a hard 90 minute workout, you might have 45g carbs in a bottle from 45-90 minutes, then another 45g carbs post-ride. You’re getting your 60g/hour, but always refuelling.
Of course there are then secondary factors to consider. The intensity of workout might govern the type and the quantity of carbs you choose. An early-morning workout might require fuelling from the start if glycogen stores aren’t full, or to decrease RPE. But overall, the principle of using fast carbs to refuel from the work you’ve just done is one I can sensibly apply to both short and long workouts.
Don’t know if this resonates with anyone else. But it’s helped me make sense of carb timing and planning.
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It’s refuelling only when you hit zero. Mostly, it’s slowing down the rate of muscle glycogen depletion so you hopefully don’t reach zero.
Well, the jury on this is still out there …
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00376.2015
or this one
or the classic review paper Coggan and Coyle (1991):
concluded
But I’m pretty sure a plane doesn’t do a mid-air refuelling manoeuvre only when it’s completely out of jet fuel, right? And you don’t let the gas tank run down to zero before heading to the pump.
I think the metaphor stands. It’s just supposed to be an easy-to-remember rule of thumb really…
Food (eat up): general meals
Fuel (fill up): what you eat 2-4 hours before workout, or perhaps day before a big event
Refuel (top up): whatever you can digest once you start using glycogen, to stop the tank running empty.
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So my approach is centered around my intermittent fasting (20:4) with my window typically falling from 4PM - 8PM.
My workouts are typically around the 3PM and 4PM mark, which includes my Ramp Test. So the way I look at it, my overall FTP is lower because of testing in a fasted state which lines up with my daily workouts that are fasted.
This makes me think (I could be super wrong) that if I were to fuel for a ride with carbs I would potentially have a bit more in my tank.
To be fair if you can only do workouts in a fasted state then I’d say testing in a fasted state isn’t such a bad idea but would recommend doing a 20 minute test as it will probably be a bit more accurate when you’re depleted. If you test fasted then I would fast for all of my workouts otherwise bump your workouts up by like 5% if you fuel for them. BTW the ftp test is gonna suck, good luck!
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lol…
Endomorph: 87%
Mesomorph: 13%
Ectomorph: 0%
I think you’re looking at it a little askew. Your core point - that you might have more in your tank if you did a test while fueled is likely true.
However, the fundamental gap is that you’re limiting your training over the long-term. If you fueled differently you would have the bump in performance consistently and would likely see more significant, sustainable, gains.
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How do you get ~120 grams carbs in 2 bottles and do you need to have plain water also or does the carb mix work for hydration?
Oh yeah the Ramp Test wasn’t fun but that’s the point right?!
Well that’s only 60g per bottle. So i do roughly half gatorade mix, half maltodextrin.
I go up to about 100g in a bottle though.
~35 gatorade powder, 10g fructose, 55g maltodextrin.
Havent had any need for extra water, no stomach issues or anything. I typically dont do more than 2 bottles though…I’m not really an epic ride kind of guy. I’ll go through those in as little as 2 hours, though in practice I just generally bring the 2 bottles and refill with water after. But generally that’s enough…I rarely will do more than 50 some miles on a fast group ride.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned orzo in this thread, so I thought I’d give it a plug. It’s a semolina product that looks like rice, but it has the starchiness of pasta. It’s great to eat before and after rides. I’ve even eaten it a couple of hrs before cx races w/o any digestion trouble.
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I’ve found tailwind works really well for me, for 3 hours hard. After that I’m getting hungry.
Been bringing a lot of haribo on my sweetspot rides outdoors.
5+ gels per ride is just not sustainable.
Do you guys reckon earing sweets like that is considerably worse health wise compared to malto drinks/gels/bars?
I have to admit (n=1), doing long Z2/endurance rides is much easier on a HFLC diet. The physical and mental sensations during such rides are much more even-keeled than on a HCLF diet.
Comparing my summer of HFLC high volume Z2-only training last year with going full-on carbs 4-months ago, and now in my 6th week of 80/20 training…I get many more weird feelings during the final hours of long Z2 rides.
Of course I can also hammer out way more carbed-up VO2max intervals, so I’ll take the trade-off.
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nope. Having processed sugary things all bad when not needed, so just use them on the bike to fuel the fire.