I started training 2…3y ago, outdoor and endurance only, barely ever going over TP.
Xert has me with FTP 258w, 35Kj HIE and therefore only 170w LTP. Not sure how much I trust the TP, but given I am much more a strength type of person rather than endurance, the general split is probably correct.
I started trying TR and last sunday the ramp test gave me 294w FTP.
Monday I went into SSB1, which went well and I marked it with “hard”. Wednesday I still could complete the next SS session, but I was close to vomiting during the last interval so marked it as “all out” with led to some adaptions in the coming week, making (only) the Wednesday workouts easier.
Not 100% sure if I did the mistake to do the workout right after getting up or if the intensity was just too much.
Still for Friday it wants me to do a 1.5h “stretch” Threshold workout. No clue if I should even try that or rather replace it with a “productive” one right away?
My legs are pretty sore right now and I never did anything similar before. I am not even sure I am ready for any workout tomorrow.
Maybe thats all just normal? I fear that I overdo things and get sick.
Any experience or advice welcome!
Have you been doing workouts in Xert? I’m asking to see if you’re used to doing anything other than Endurance stuff. You started by saying you only do Endurance, but then mentioned Xert and then that you’re more of a Strength athlete than Endurance.
Personally, I have realized over time that Ramp Tests overestimate my FTP, which meant I was unknowingly doing a lot of my efforts in a zone higher than the one the workout prescribed. If your SS workout was being done in what is actually your VO2 zone, I can see where that would be brutal. OTOH, if you’re not used to anything but Endurance rides, that would make anything much higher feel very tough too. Those are two very different scenarios, and that’s why I asked about your previous workouts above.
Indeed, I didn’t do workouts, just endurance. That might sound weird saying at the same time that I am more a strength person. Its because I wanted to get better at long rides in the mountains.
But now I feel its time to try something different to see what I like more.
FTP tests overestimating FTP for more “strength like athletes” is something a heard before. And you seem to confirm that a SS workout should not feel like I experienced it.
That seems to leave me with different options:
manually lower my TR FTP setting, maybe to the 260ish watts Xert put me on and see what the TR AI tells me after a the first 10 workouts. I dont care about what that number says, as long as I become faster over time
Leave FTP where it is, maybe choose easier alternative workouts here and there and let the adaptive training do its job
I seem to like option 1. more. Mainly because it would mean starting easy and improving from there. While option 2. would be the opposite: Start hard and lower if needed, with the optional ticket to shoot me down in the process.
Also I am not sure if 2. would even work sufficiently.
This is the main sign to me that your FTP is set way too high. SS should be ‘tough but manageable’.
I don’t have any experience with Xert, but I’m assuming HIE means the same as W’ or Anaerobic Work Capacity. This is your ability to do work over threshold. 35Kj is really high. People with really high W’ tend to have their FTP overestimated on ramp tests (or other short FTP tests) because it can allow you to sort of out run your aerobic system and go much deeper that someone with a more average W’.
I would probably rest and ride easy for a couple days until you’re less sore and then go back to the plan but just manually change your FTP to something closer to your Xert FTP.
You are comparing (2) completely different training theory approach’s between TR and Xert. Xert never shows you an actual FTP but rather TP and LTP for your current fatigue and fitness with an actual Peak Power and hypothetical HIE (which i believe yours may be slightly elevated).
Xert uses a hybrid polarized theory, IMO if you have moved away from Xert to TR then you need to completely disregard your Xert numbers and ideals and focus on TR recommendations and process. Depending on where you were on your Xert ATP you could be very tired right now making the workouts on TR even more difficult.
Maybe try feeding your cycling history into Intervals.icu and seeing what their eFTP says? eFTP isn’t perfect (nothing is), but it would give you a 3rd opinion and probably be more accurate as a starting point since it will be based on all of your past rides.
I’m not arguing that his FTP “is or is not” correct, I’m more on the stance that he is taking a different approach to training.
We also are not sure what workout he was doing, Xert uses a lot less SST than TR - he could be very unfamiliar with these types of workouts and a repeated 85-95% workout drives his HR up as he progresses to the point of sickness.
Sidenote - its an interesting read that has been discussed on THIS THREAD about what causes nausea when working out. I learned a lot from it.
If you have only complete endurance workouts then most likely the Xert FTP estimation is not correct. But given you mention long rides in the mountains its unlikely you were climbing mountains at endurance pace only unless you are very light. The likelihood is you were also riding tempo - threshold at times.
It’s not normal to feel sick after any workout imo. Sounds like your FTP is set too high and will no doubt fail a stretch threshold workout.
Also structured workouts indoors on ERG are very different to outdoors. I would reduce the FTP 20 watts minimum and see how the workouts feel, any early signs that you will fail I would reduce it further.
I’d lower FTP to at least what Xert says, or even lower. Sweetspot shouldn’t be vomit-inducing at all. There is less harm in having your FTP set too low, than too high. I’d rather set it too low, until TR’s AI FTP estimation kicks in, if you’re using that
Ramp tests are great for the majority of the population, easy to pace and relatively low TSS but its a bit of a bell curve and for folks at either end of the curve it’ll test to low or too high. Sounds like it tested too high with you. Id go initially with what you are comfortable with (sounds like the Xert 260w) and after 10 TR work outs run AI FTP Detection and see what that gives.
Agree with above. SS should be almost easy relative to threshold or vo2. You should know you’re pushing watts, but be able to keep going for a long time. Never should you feel like you’re on the limit and need to stop.
I agree with others to set your ftp down to Xert levels. Also, be sure you’re using the power reading off your outside bike power meter. If you are instead getting power readings from your inside meter, then that might explain why everything is off.
Definitely a case of your FTP being over estimated by the ramp test, which is making your SS days actually threshold (and possibly over threshold) and is making your endurance days more like tempo. In theory once trained, most athletes can do actual Sweet Spot for 1.5-2 hours. It should definitely feel like you are working, but not so hard where you are staring at the screen hoping for the interval to end soon and really having to grit through it.
I know you mentioned that you mostly only rode endurance in the past, but do you have any data showing what your 30-40 minute best power from a group ride, or from a day where you worked harder than usual?
Also, what volume are you currently doing? Is the plan you picked considerably more volume than you have done in the past?
The two workouts I did so far after the ramp test were Goddard -4 (SS 1.9), that one went ok. Two days later I got Jordan (SS 2.0), the one I felt I need to vomit after. I also remember that the last two intervals I had to focus 100%, staring on my handle bar and counting my breaths while awaiting the second its over.
I see you all agree to some extend that SS should not be that kind of hard.
I use the same PM inside & outside, so thats not a concern
While mosty doing endurance, maybe once a quarter I still provoked what Xert calls “breakthrough” using some all out supra-TP effort. So it has an useful base for its own estimation. There I also had >300w FTP (or Xert-TP) at times, but that was with double of my current training load back than
Xert HIE is indeed in indicator similar to W’. While they would reason why its something different/better I think with my 35Kj its fair to assume that I am an “high anaerobic capacity / low all-day endurance” guy
regarding climbing at endurance pace, I am definitly not very light. But these modern 52T MTB casettes together with a small front ring help a lot
I picked low volume SS base plan in TR. That is less volume than what I am used to (which was my goal to gain time for the growing family) but as said, way more intensity
So I think I will follow the recommendation of many posters and lower that FTP in TR.
I assume the AI detecting will still take care of adjusting that from that point onwards without the shortcomings of ramp testing, would you agree?
After lowering the FTP I went back to the feedback for the last workout and tuned it down from “all out” to “hard” and later even “easy”, in the expectation the plan would revert the adaptions it did after my initial rating, back to its original state. But that doesn’t seem to happen.
I couldn’t find a place to review or revert past adaptions directly. Is there any way to provoke that?
I don’t think you should try to the second guess the system. Its been said a few times you should rate them how it felt, if it felt all out leave it that way, The system should recognise the change in FTP and factor that in to future adaptions. I’m not sure what triggers the adaption process specifically though but it usually does it at some point if you are patient (its not immediate).
@Slowwithouttwitch this is my position too. Xert consistently underestimated my FTP and overestimated my HIE. And unlike you I was doing above threshold workouts, just shorter with fewer intervals. And a lot of challenging endurance workouts.
Not sure what I would do if you, but the ramp test is better at getting you a rough estimate of FTP than Xert if you were only doing endurance rides.
Without seeing what you did, I’d question if that was enough to get a good estimate of FTP.
While doing something like 70-80% endurance riding, and the rest was intervals, Xert gave me 29kJ HIE. Back in 2017 I was doing a lot of really hard threshold and short (1-min interval) training, and Xert actually gave me a very good estimate of both FTP and HIE. But my HIE was something like 18-20kJ back then. And every other analytic tool has had me peaking around 18kJ every season. And in Xert I could see the problem, my best 5-sec power is around 1100-1150W but Xert would model it around 1200+ and my power curve was lopsided to short power. And thats why it overestimated HIE and underestimated FTP, while doing mostly endurance riding.
How much volume were you doing before TR? Because if you are dropping from 6-10 hours/week down to 3-5 hours (TR LV), then I believe you have a chance of losing fitness. Cycling is an endurance sport. Endurance is largely influenced by muscle contractions, relatively low-intensity contractions, and same for the heart. Which is why you can get really really really fast doing 15-20 hours/week of mostly easy with some high-intensity work. Every individual has a tipping point in the number of hours where replacing endurance with intensity will work. We can’t predict where yours is, and in my experience (again for me) I get faster above 6-ish hours a week (versus 3 days of 60-min high intensity workouts).
Hope all that helps, and curious how many hours you were doing previously.
As mentioned above, 35 kJ HIE is very high. Unless you have actively done various all out activities, the Xert fitness signature will not be correct. If you want to improve the accuracy you can try riding at a target wattage between 258 and 294 W until you fail (use ERG mode). Say you aim for 278 W (20 W above TP), it will take you around 29 min (35000/(20 * 60)) to drain your HIE. If you are able to hold it for longer you will get a new signature where HIE is decreased and TP increased.
Maybe you can share a screenshot of your last breakthrough?