Half volume, add 20W to FTP?

Training
1

Hello,

See here the plan for my next four weeks. Am I really going to gain 20 watts (at 60kg) by cutting my volume in half due to busy weekends? I usually lose half the prediction due to ‘life’ and an occasional ‘hard’ where it expected ‘moderate’. But still :wink:

(Custom plan based on two events. I think I even have the exact days and hours TR AI proposed.)

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Possible explanations I see:

  • Training stresses tend to take about six weeks to result in increases in fitness and I just did a couple of good weeks.
  • AI detection FTP isn’t a ‘fresh FTP’ but a ‘FTP on this day’. Where FTP ~ level 4 threshold session I think to remember. So maybe my fresh FTP is already 265-270W, but I just always get a detection on my rest day when I’m tired and I won’t be able to do a session with that FTP. The fact that in five days a 5.1 Threshold session would be 64% Moderate also points to this idea.

Second option would make a lot of sense and add some confidence in TR AI again, because 251W would be quite disappointing after my first six months of structured training ever, doubling my hours, and normally having a plateau at 240W with just two Zwift races a week. (Humble brag, I know) Feel free to check out my training in general. TR FTP has been swinging in a range for four months…Training wasn’t always that clean though.

Thanks, bye!

2

Are you doing all of what’s in your calendar AND racing on Zwift twice a week?

3

No no, that I could not do! My ‘training’ used to be two (longer) Zwift races a week and maybe a groupride outiside sometimes the previous years and I would get to a 240W FTP. So I would be kinda disappointed if after all the structure and hours of this year, not doing Zwift races, I would only be at 251W.

4

Maybe it’s sorta like a taper for a big race and it figures you’ll be ready to rip in 4 weeks.

Joe

5

This is a thought that keeps coming into my mind … is Predicted AIFTP effectively a narrow(ish) range that is then shifted down (usually) or up based on acute fatigue?

6

Yes, my take is to try and think longer than 4 week windows. I’ve had time to gradually add a few hours to my weeks (without upsetting RLGL) which doesn’t move the needle of the immediate prediction but figure that these will show up later.

7

How have your hard workouts, specifically threshold, been feeling lately?

What levels have you done recently, and how did you rate them?

8

Latest two threshold workouts were 4.2 and 4.5 Over-unders at previous AI FTP of 241W. They were estimated as 66% and 77% moderate which is how they felt.

Theshold is the lowest level in my career, I did VO2max at level 6 and 7 which I also rated as the expected moderate.

You can also see in my plan that again it expects all hard days to have moderate RPE. Combine that with cutting a lot of volume for two weeks this month, I don’t see how I’m supposed to gain 20W AI FTP unless that number is for that specific day (not a general, fresh FTP) and thus I would just be very fresh at the end of this block.

9

Latest two threshold workouts were 4.2 and 4.5 Over-unders at previous AI FTP of 241W. They were estimated as 66% and 77% moderate which is how they felt.

This tells me that your FTP is likely higher than it’s currently set. That’s probably why you’re seeing such a big predicted jump.

You can also see in my plan that again it expects all hard days to have moderate RPE.

This is likely because it’s really rare for you to rate a hard workout anything other than moderate. I can see a few VO2 workouts that you rated as hard, but most of your workouts are rated as easy or moderate. After a while, the model starts to assume that’s how you’ll rate your upcoming workouts regardless of what it prescribes.

Are you rating all of your workouts purely on how the work felt? Here’s our guide on Post-Workout Surveys for reference.

If you are rating them honestly based on our guidelines, then I think we just need to get a couple of workouts in place that actually feel hard. Once you show the model what that looks like, things should click into place.

Let me know if this makes sense.

10

I do indeed rate moderate often because I use this guide from Chad a few months ago: https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/0/f/0f6aee9c13517b78544888ec38b2214da6288647.png

The most usable metric for hard is ‘Only one more interval’ and I think I could often do two or three more and didn’t doubt a good finish. Especially given that the latest were many shorter VO2max intervals. With your link I would indeed use ‘hard’ more often.

I’ll save your link and focus more on general feel, probably resulting in a bit more hard rated workouts. But I’ll also try to do a few workout more towards my limit, so I can genuinely rate them higher and show where my limits might be.

11

Unfortunately, that’s not the official set of guidelines.

Here’s what we recommend using:

  1. Easy
    This ride felt easy and non-taxing, requiring little effort or focus. You could repeat the ride and pass it without issue.

  2. Moderate
    This ride was somewhat comfortable but required some focus to complete. You felt a little challenged but had confidence that you could finish. If the ride had an additional set of intervals, you could complete it.

  3. Hard
    This ride required effort and focus and was challenging to complete. It felt tough, and you looked forward to the ride ending. If there were an additional set of intervals, you could have done it with significant focus.

  4. Very Hard
    This ride was very difficult to complete, and it tested you. If there were one more set of intervals, you wouldn’t have been able to complete it.

  5. Maximum Effort
    This ride was extremely difficult. It pushed you well beyond your abilities and took a massive amount of energy and focus to complete. You’ll feel like you barely made it to the end of this ride, and that you had to pull out every mental trick in the book to finish. If you had to pause during a workout to catch your breath or adjust the power demand down, the workout was likely a max effort.

    • If a workout was a maximum effort because of external factors like illness, poor sleep, or fatigue, be sure to add that detail in the follow-up survey.

Notice that we say “set of intervals,” which means that if you’re doing those really short on/off style workouts such as 30/30s, we’re not asking if you could simply do one more 30-second interval, but rather another set.

In the case where you’re doing longer intervals such as a 5x5 workout, consider if you could do one more interval.

I posted this in another thread which might help explain:

Just to clear things up here, when talking about “sets,” we’re referring to a group of intervals that are tightly spaced with longer rest periods on either side.

Here are some examples of sets:

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When we ask you if you could have completed another set of intervals, this is what were asking about. A singular interval wouldn’t really be accurate in this case. The last image is a good representation since each interval is only 30 seconds long. We can pretty much always get through another 30-second interval, but getting through another set is a different question.

There are, of course, examples where you’re not doing sets of intervals, such as with sustained work, and in those cases, it’s best to answer with the overall structure of the workout in mind, with rest periods similar to how we define sets. In these situations, answer if you could have done another interval, as we wouldn’t consider the entire workout a “set” of three intervals.

What we’re essentially looking for is the work done between longer periods of rest.

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It’s proven to be tough to get everyone on board with these surveys, and I’m not sure if we’ll ever win everyone over, but this seems to be the best way to describe what we’re looking for at the moment. Using the singular term “interval” seems like it’s less accurate since many or most of our workouts use sets.

Let me know if this helps.

12

I sincerely hope it’s not that dumb. :slight_smile: My understanding is that it is setting an AI FTP value that will be optimal for the training for the next 28 days. I think this is what they mean by “functional”. In general, I believe it’s trying to get the most out of us without flying too close to the sun …

13

It is also worth noting that there has been some confusion about the difference between AN interval and A SET of intervals. The official RPE scale I believe is asking if you could do another SET of intervals.

So in the case of, say, a 3x20 sweet spot session that would mean a 20min set

In the case of over unders it would mean one 9 minute set of 2/1/2/1/2/1min for example.

For anaerobic it could mean a set of sprints such as :45/:15/:45/:15/:45/:15

The point is that it doesn’t mean “can you do one more interval” it means “can you do one more full set of intervals”.

EDIT: oh, Eddie got to it first! An excellent explanation above :+1:t3: