FTP Decreasing Despite Completing all Workouts

Training
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I think the issue here is not about how AiFTP compares to ramp tests/20 min tests etc.

It is that, recently, there are several people who feel recently, that AIFTP has become more conservative than it used to be

I think people just want to know if that is true, )i.e. its a system change) or whether, indeed, their training is no longer producing results and they need to change something.

I dont think anyone is saying AiFTP doesnt work as well as the ramp/20 min test.

They are using it to guide their training and have questions about what seems to be a change in the system.

Surely we can ask these questions?

Surely TR would want us to ask? Because, what if indeed the ML is acting to conservatively? What if people are starting to plateau following plans? What if they loose users because of this? The answer is probably more to do with people not following plans/not recovering/hitting their glass ceilings…but if it isn’t?

If we don’t ask the questions then no one knows that people are unsettled. Feedback to a company is important afterall.

The only people who can honestly answer are the TR team as they are the only ones who know what is happening with the ML side of things.

I must admit that this thread, and others like it, highlight how well the TR marketing and podcast have worked. I never even thought about power until 2 years ago when i first heard the podcast. Then I’ve had two years of having it drummed in that “FTP is king” “higher power means you’ll be faster” “higher power makes your lower zones easier” “all that matters is power” This is particularly true if you listen back to shows with Coach Chad.

So it can be hard to let go of that and listen to the new narrative of “ftp isnt everything” “there are other measures of fitness”. This messaging suits me just fine though, as I have realised I don’t care as much about power as I do riding my bike. That is not to say without progressive structure, but I am certainly going to worry less about changing the prescribed workouts/making them fit around my outside terrain/adding back in more social riding.

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Is it a problem? A few n=1 does not mean that it is. Only TR knows how their “ai” FTP works and they don’t share the data they presumably have to show that it works. The best thing individual users can do if they doubt it is to verify the model with testing.

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Isn’t the goal of TR to make you/us faster? I mean if you are hitting tougher workouts (PLs) and better power… even if AIFTP isn’t dialed in, I’d argue the program is working. Maybe an algorithm doesn’t work for you… but the program is, no?

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The goal is to make us faster, in my case TR made me faster there is no dispute. Overall I’m happy with the progress.

However for the program to remain optimally effective an accurate FTP is desired. Therefore its not unreasonable to question an (AI)FTP data point if it doesnt make sense.

At this point I’m just trying to understand what is going.

I have done 3 more workouts since accepting the ramp FTP. Two were my “hard” days. These went fine with 280 FTP with HRs and RPEs in the intended zones.

eddie 171

Just as a heads-up, we haven’t forgotten about this thread.

Your thoughts and experience are important to us and we’ve been discussing this internally to see if there’s something we can do to improve your experience moving forward.

We’ll reach out when we have something to share. :handshake:

15 Likes
172

The thing is - some of those people wanted not to “get fitter” but to increase their FTP. The marketing tells them that this is indeed what using TR can do for them. They chose a plan specifically targeted to increase their FTP, and followed it to a T. And, after finishing the plan, TR tells them their FTP stayed the same (or even slightly decreased). This is contrary to what they expected, given all the information available to them. Finally, when venting their confusion/disappointment, others console them that their “fitness” has increased. This does not help much when the original expectation was increased FTP, and TR did not deliver on their marketing promise.

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Your first sentence is confusing OBDA. By stating you want to increase your FTP you in fact want to “get more fit” on the bike. You can’t have one without the other. It is also a presumption that if you want to increase your FTP, you have some understanding of what FTP actually is regardless of any marketing hype surrounding it. it’s a ever changing Data point that ebs and flows day to day week to week. Training a particular way is known to effect your FTP in a positive way. Over-training on the other hand is know to effect your FTP in a negative way. Several other known factors that can effect this data point in a negative way are fatigue, stress, diet… etc but there are others. Your FTP today is different then it was yesterday and different then it will be tomorrow by the nature of what the Data point represents. To rely solely on marketing hype as your reference point on whether or not something is working is not reliable. it just isn’t. Again this whole thread centers around a given persons perception which led him to asking the question he did. No one can change that perception no matter how much information we all can provide to the contrary. Its a question that doesn’t have an answer really because it based on someones perception. Most people on this thread were trying to show there are other ways to look at the data to show the platform is working. There is another thread “counterpoint to the FTP Obsession” that was started which points out that FTP is not all that it is cracked up to be. You might consider that a strange thread on a platform that is marketed solely as one to increase your FTP. This discussion is nothing new on this platform as i was trying to point out in my last reply.

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i dont get the obsession with it being “wrong” anyway. Like I said before, if you’re so certain you’re better if workout feels to easy with the AI FTP, either do your own test (20 min or ramp) or just go outside on your favorite segment/hill and go maximum effort and if that gives a higher FTP than the AI just set that as your new ftp.

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Im noticing some obsession with ftp obsession. I think the actual question has been long forgotten.

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Hey @belciugo—just wanted to follow up with a quick note!

You can now use the new Check Volume feature to see if TrainerRoad recommends changing your training volume. Your personally optimal volume can change throughout a plan as your fitness evolves (as yours has :flexed_biceps:).

:chart_increasing: Learn more here →
This way, you can ensure your training is optimally productive and progressive.

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Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the two replies. Forgot to reply for the first one. Appriciate the loop back :slight_smile:

Sounds good. I actually did and it suggested I go up by almost 2 hours. I will be transitioning to more outdoor riding as winter finally goes away so I will be changing my program after this weeks final speciality block. I will struggle to find a balance between outdoor/indoor as the season transitions but yea, I will use check volume to build a new plan.

Cheers.

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For sure!

Aaaah you’re one step ahead! Nice! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Remember, you can still do structured workouts outside :wink:. And for those fun, less-structured rides, Fatigue Detection will keep you on track so your training stays productive (even if it looks different).

Enjoy the sunshine! :sun_with_face:

Kendogz161 182

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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This is a good one and should be on the Ask a Cyclist podcast.
Completed all prescribed workouts and my FTP went down.
May not be good for TR marketing but would make an interesting episode and deep dive.

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Speciality phases are generally not meant to increase FTP. In general they are intended to improve the specific fitness needed for your event. For example an endurance event might focus on time to exhaustion or a XC MTB might focus on short bursts of power. Build is meant to focus on building FTP. Base is laying a foundation that leads to a successful Build and Specialty. Depending on your situation FTP may increase, stagnate, or go down in any phase.

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That wasn’t really my question. That difference in training may change how your FTP goes up, and it might not. I’m asking is AIFTP looking at the outputs to determine FTP or essentially assuming it’s a specialty phase and limiting the increase arbitrarily.?

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I believe it’s looking at your outputs rather than the phase. I assume this because it still works when people aren’t on a plan.

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Post a link to your calendar and we can help you figure it out. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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Kendogz do not do this, its a trap :smiley:

To update people here, after completing a Threshold 9.0 at 0.98IF and ending my program 3 days early but then completing a 7.6 anearobic and a 9.2 Sweetspot, my FTP went to 295W.

Idk how many people are able to complete those types of PL levels on this forum. I am happy overall but now I am a bit scared of constantly pumping out 8-9.5 workouts.

I almost wish the FTP was bumped higher, lowering the PLs more and then getting you to train at higher watts but with more recovery. The threshold 9.0 was bonkers :smiley:.

Outdoor season is almost here for me so I will not be focusing too much on the workouts anyways.