Failed Int 2/5 in Eagle -1 after FTP up 208 -> 215, 3.4%. Pretty solid proof FTP set too high, right?

Training
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[Please stay on-topic and don’t get into defining or even ‘finding your true FTP’. I’m only talking about what FTP should be set to in TR so WOs difficulties & zones are right.

Also important: I know ‘FTP’, and therefore your zones, can fluctuate hugely day to day based on fatigue, sleep, nutrition, stress, etc., and some argue for non-FTP based training. Please let’s just stay on topic; let’s assume I want to continue to use TR WOs, and we are discussing where FTP should be set in TR. And for the sake of this discussion, let’s assume I was feeling excellent. Esp bc I really was, and was feeling ready to kill it!!]

Seeking input if below is a good benchmark, and decent proof my FTP is set too high.

I was completely gassed after Int 1. HR v close to my max @ 22:00, only 6 mins into Int 1, 5 to 7 / 10 level mental struggle to finish. Shortly after Int 2 started, I dialed it back to make sure watts would be same as int 1; 210 instead of increased a bit. HR at my abs max @ 33:00, half way pt of Int 2. Told myself I’d just finish Int 2, 8 to 9 / 10 mental push to finish, legs feeling cooked.

…OK, fine, I’ll attempt Int 3, but I can bail anytime. Move diff % lower still to keep locked @ 210 W, no increase, couldn’t do it. HR back to abs max only 2 mins in, 10/10 mental struggle to finish Int 3, but I did it. Honestly never been so ‘in the zone’ in my life. [Great feeling!] Dead, bailed, took like 15 mins spinning @ 80 watts in Recess -4 to wash the gunk out [usually happy w 2 – 7 mins].

WO was rated as Productive vs my PL after FTP bump.

SO… FTP is def too high… right? If FTP is correct, you should be able to hold 101% for 10 mins fairly easily, right? [I’m quite strong in high threshold – low VO2, I’m a TTist, def not a sprinter.]

Also, this is a result we’d expect from a Breakthrough WO, or at least high Stretch, not a Productive, ya? So a second thing also pointing to FTP too high?

I really feel like a WO like this [warm up, do some work, break, 101% for 10 mins] is a very good benchmarker after you’ve had an FTP bump. At the end of Int 1, you should feel you’re pushing, but definitely ready for Int 2, at it’s intended level, and should at very least get through Int 3, perhaps pretty maxxed, but ready to at least attempt Int 4, right?

You should really not be at your 10/10 [… or 11/10…] RPE just to finish Int 3… especially after dialing % back to 97 @ start of Int 2.

If this isn’t a good benchmarker WO to double check where your FTP is set after a bump, what is?

There must be a WO that will get you to hold FTP for a bit, and / or run you through some zones, so you can then be like “Yeah, OK, that feels approximately how it should.”, without running a full ramp or 45 min TT effort.

[Again, not looking to ‘find my true, real-world FTP’. Just looking to have it set right in TR for WO zones.]

Sincerely appreciate your time & input!

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IMO, you can’t make any decision re: your FTP based on one workout. Shrug it off and memory-hole it. Try the next workout and see how it goes.

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@Power13 normally I’d think the same thing, like if I crashed out in Int 3 - 5 of 5.

It’s the being completely gassed in Int 1 / 5 and pulling the % bail switch right at the start of Int 2 that has me thinking “Ok… so this is not just ‘possibly’ off… this means definitely off, right?”

As always, appreciate the input! I’m counting that a vote […now 4 votes] in the jar for “Fahgettaboudit, leave it, do the next one or two, re-evaluate.”

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Assuming you didn’t have an equipment issue that is sapping a lot of watts your trainer isn’t measuring, your FTP is unequivocally set too high. If you struggled on the last rep or two, I’d say don’t discount sleep/caffeine/time of day/ambient temp/motivation. But if you can’t do the first rep of a FTP level workout, you’re too close to VO2max.

If you’re a TT type person, get a day of rest or go for an easy ride outside then do a 20 minute FTP test. Pace it right so you can hold the power for the full 20. Your power tracing should look like a very slight smile - slight dip in the middle 10 minutes and then climb a bit in last 5 minutes. Let TR calculate your new FTP (should be 95% of your average power over those 20’). Don’t worry about the number being low. Think of how awesome you’ll feel when you think “hey this is way too easy” and you can increase it.

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if you are feeling so rough during effort 1, you will not recover in a short time for round 2. i’m going to suggest, the following: fueling was less than ideal. ftp work requires lots of muscle glycogen. heat. improper cooling will ruin any high intensity quickly. your previous ftp workouts should be a guide to where your progress is. only you will know the truth. just having done a few decent workouts does not mean ftp is going up.
another point is, your ftp for a male isn’t super high so suggests a fairly new cyclists (<3 yrs). give yourself credit and keep working.

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There is no way of telling without knowing your previous workouts in that energy system, like how they went and how you rated them. Your FTP could be correct but you ramped up too fast

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The OP said they were at max HR in rep 1. Really doubt that’s underfueling. They’re riding at VO2 when the workout expects them to be just a bit above FTP.

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@ArHu74 Fri Jun 30, when FTP was at 208, did Connell, rated it just Hard. Was def pushing, but not maxxed. Think I could have done 210 - 212 W before I would have marked it Very Hard. But depends on fatigue & vitality that day, obvi.

Ran AI FTP right after this WO, 208 → 215.

Sort of leaning towards FTP is 208 or 210 still, and the bump was somehow too much.

I’d love to say 215, but ya. Given what we’re talking about in this thread, I can’t see how that’s possible.

It’s weird. I never would have thought 208 vs 215 would be THAT big a difference. But at threshold & VO2, it really seems to make a massive difference.

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With only 2min rest intervals this is a killer workout. I’m surprised it’s only listed as a 6.9.

I wouldn’t worry too much about it but I would tend to agree that 101% of FTP for 10min should be hard but manageable. Maybe your FTP is too high, maybe your nutrition wasn’t great, etc. It’s hard to say.

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Clearly something is wrong.

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Maybe it was too hot inside? How was your RPE ?

I’ve noticed lately my threshold workouts have had my heart rate higher than normal with temps at ±90° with >80% humidity. Although RPE has felt normal, I try to ignore my heart rate this time of year in Florida. It can play games with my head especially long threshold stuff.

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@WindWarrior as in looking like FTP is set too high, or something else is off?

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I did rubicon +1 this week. 3 x 10 intervals @ 106%. Hard but doable. Maybe FTP is a bit high in your case.

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Something. FTP might be too high. Perhaps slowly accumulating fatigue, couple that with minor shifts in carb consumption (off-the-bike) and it can sneak up on anyone and impact a hard workout. Perhaps some other off-the-bike thing is going on. Only you can guess at possible reasons.

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So, you did a 8.0 threshold workout and marked it only as “hard.” Then you got a +7 bump. Nothing about that sends up red flags to me.

You then did a 6.9 threshold workout and could not pass it. That’s a little surprising, but there can be a lot of reasons for that. As for what to do about it, I assume adaptive training saw that you didn’t pass and has knocked your progression level down some more. You can either trust it and keep doing the work to get back to the top of the progression at your new FTP, or you can re-adjust your FTP down a bit and keep going at the higher PL workouts. Either is probably fine.

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I’d be tempted to take a couple of v easy days and then repeat the last threshold workout I successfully completed, at the same wattage as I completed it last time, and - hopefully - with similar fuelling / heat control etc etc.

If you complete it in as good shape as last time, your bad day probably was just a bad day.

If you struggle again … you very probably need to properly rest.

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@ChefAcB very good idea, and I appreciate the insight! Def could have been it.

Not in my case, though. We’re up here in The Canada, Southern Ontario. In summer we will get a good 2 - 6 ish total weeks where it’s 30 - 40 C = 86 - 104 F and 75 - 90% humidity. So we have an extremely good AC unit = all my WOs are done locked at same temp & humidity.

And I have one of the best [and cheapest] fans in the world.

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If it were me, I’d put my ftp at 210 and try the workout again after a couple days. The only exception would be if you wake up tomorrow and realize you are getting sick and that was the problem, or there is some other explanation like temperature. The latter has a big impact on my threshold workouts, but not as much on sweet spot and below or VO2 max. Threshold is right at the line so when the temp in my trainer room rises from 65 F to 70 F, and humidity rises from 30% to 50%, everything at threshold seems way harder. I know you said you have that pretty controlled, but for me even a small nudge towards the uncomfortable side can make a big difference in RPE.

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Definitely a possibility, but I’d be hesitant to draw any conclusions based on a single workout. A quick rest/mental reset would probably be my first move- worst case scenario you can always bump the intensity down a few percent on the next couple of sessions if needed, which should give you more of an indication anyway.

FWIW I’ve had days when I’ve felt great and still struggled to hit my targets in lieu of any obvious issue- they’re rare enough that I don’t worry too much, but bodies can be weird and some days you just don’t ‘have it’ for whatever reason.

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Firstly, it looks like a challenging workout for anyone. It’s 50mins of work above FTP. I would be slightly anxious about it if it turned up in my calendar. For me it’s rated as a 6.9 and a breakthrough. I think I would approach by ensuring that my RPE feels about FTP and my HR is around LTHR i.e., tweaking the intensity to achieve this. It should feel hard, but barely sustainable.

Secondly, I’ve found the levels to be very useful, to the extent that I’m not concerned so much by what my TR FTP is. I’m guessing your threshold level is too high. If 6.9s are too hard, look for equivalents at a lower level. I’d imagine TR ought to dial it down for you if you reported the workout as being too intense.

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