Has anyone training 4–6 hours/week intentionally prioritized extensive progression (more time in zone at the same power) over intensive progression (more power)? If so, how are you balancing that with TrainerRoad AI?
What I’ve noticed is that TR AI seems optimized for progressing power, while my goal is often progressing time in zone (TiZ). I also test blood lactate regularly and have a good idea of what’s happening under the hood at certain intensities and the goal is to improve those LT1 and LT2 abilities.
For example, I’d rather progress from 5x3 to 5x4 to 5x5 minutes (for Vo2) at the same power (or 3x10 to 3x12 to 3x15 threshold) than increase power every week. Also, when I insert workouts to match this progression, AI eventually starts predicting a lower FTP because I’m not increasing interval power, even though my workouts and lactate data suggest I’m adapting well.
I’m not saying TR is wrong. I actually think it’s doing exactly what it was designed to do by manage fatigue, consistency, and completion rates. I’m just wondering how to best combat that internal programing.
You are probably right with TR going for intensity progression instead to time in zone. Partially because I believe it’s still marketed primarily for the famous time crunched cyclist, and those don’t tend to have more time for more time in zone.
a way you could potentially work around this setup might be by increasing the duration of workouts in your manually. In theory you can do this for every week in 15min steps, but that might be a bit much. If you go through the trouble, you should at least get an increase in both, intensity and time in zone.
I don’t know if I’d consider it “combat”, but I tend to pick workouts manually to do exactly what you are describing (prioritize extending duration). And I’ve been playing with a new approach this year that lets me dynamically right-size the workouts as I’m executing them. Rather than me (or the TR system) deciding exactly what interval workout is appropriate for a given day, I’ll sometimes pick a workout that has more intervals than I believe I can complete. And I’ll also use the TR workout prediction tool to get an idea of how reasonable a workout is. So, if I think I can do 5 sets of vo2 max intervals at a given wattage, I might pick a workout that has 7 sets at that wattage (this would typically show as a “not recommended” workout). I’ll go into the workout with a goal of doing 5, but with the option to add a 6th or 7th if I feel the extra work is possible and productive. If I feel like I got a good/productive workout after 5 intervals, I will just ride endurance or tempo for the balance of the workout and ignore the remaining interval instructions. I might queue that same workout up for the following week with a goal of hitting 6 intervals. It’s basically a way to control my progression in real-time based on how I’m executing the workout and how I feel on a given day. I find this approach particularly effective for vo2max and over/under work where you are often riding at the hairy edge and the difference between success and blowing up is small. Trying to figure out exactly where that line is before the workout starts is tough (for me or any system to figure out). I’ve had really good results this season playing with this approach and I plan to continue it. The first couple times felt weird because the system sees the workout as a “failure” and asks for the reason. But I just mark it as “didn’t struggle” or whatever the last reason is and put notes into the workout to outline my original objectives vs. the outcome and details on how I felt. I find this approach makes workouts less intimidating and more satisfying when I have some latitude to make interval adjustments during the workout. I don’t have much perspective on how this screws up the TR system, but I’d assume it’s a bad idea if you are leaning on TR to pick your workouts and manage your progression. I’m mostly using TR as a workout library/player and I also like the workout outcome prediction tool, but not using much else and I set my own FTP. I do think “real time dynamic workout” could be a cool feature if TR developed the concept.
All that said, I think the problem you eventually run into prioritizing duration over intensity is available training time. I have a lot of hours to train, so my mix prioritizes duration. But at some point, you can’t squeeze any more duration in with limited training time. Particularly as you get into threshold and sweet spot training where time in zone starts pushing longer and longer. And besides the time limitation, there are still good reasons to progress the intensity. I agree with some prior comments about TR leaning toward intensity progression for the sake of time, but they clearly have a mix and progression should include both intensity and duration. The best mix is always going to depend on the individual, time available, and performance goals.
One way I’ve seen athletes work on TIZ is to simply avoid raising their FTP until they’re out of higher-level workouts. Those higher-level workouts typically have more TIZ, so allowing your levels to get high gets you more TIZ.
Picking a plan that has a Sustained Power Build phase and a similar specialty phase also helps.
Yes I did. I planned my own 4-week block of extensive intervals that were a mix of threshold and supra threshold into the calendar. Many of the workouts were not recommended yet I was able to complete them all except for one workout where motivation was lacking. The results of my block were great, and it set me up for my next 4-week block of intensive intervals.
I enjoyed making my own modifications during the week as needed and I also combined some of the interval session with my long weekend ride as I was focusing on increasing my durability and training my gut.
The cool thing was seeing AI FTP prediction go up and stay up for the most part, then settle at a reasonable value as my blocks came to an end. Something that was interesting was that myself made plan was somewhat similar to the polarized base and build plans that I had used previously. @cmcgorryboco I think you should go ahead and set up your own training blocks and see how you respond to your own workout selection. You can always revert back or use the strategy that Eddie suggested in order to push out your TIZ.
All great advice! Thanks! I think the best route is to build my own plan and continue to monitor the progress and fatigue as I have the last year. It’s worked so far. I love the AI features, but don’t necessarily feel it fits this model that well. However, if I need an FTP build of intensity, I think the features are well suited for that progression.
Could you clarify what you mean by excluding higher-level workouts? Are you suggesting we delay FTP adjus for tworkout level progressiontments until no one-hour sessions remain, for instance? I am also thinking of prioritising TIZ, since my events are not until next year and I am only just returning to training. FTP gains have arrived quickly as I recover power, though I am aware they may not be sustainable. Rising from 200 W to 280 W in six months is encouraging and aligns with my aim to reach 310 W or more, but how long I can maintain the FTP will be the issue next year when I am aiming for breakaways and similar efforts.
As your FTP increases, you usually bump down TIZ slightly to bridge that gap between your old and new FTPs.
If you kick your FTP Detection down the road a bit and ride with your original FTP a bit longer, you’ll naturally climb up to higher-level workouts that have more TIZ.
One example might be something like the Truchas workout family. The lowest level version (-3) is 2x20 with 30-second rest intervals every 5 minutes. -2 bumps the recovery intervals down to every 10 minutes (one per 20-minute interval). -1 doesn’t have any breaks, and the interval length goes up to 20 minutes. +2 goes up to 23-minute intervals with a bit more power. +3 - +5 have hard starts and bump up to 24-minute intervals.
You might not get to all of those versions, though, because as your FTP increases, you might shift back down to a lower-level workout than you have recently done to keep your power targets and efforts at a steady progression.
It’s kind of like shifting a manual transmission car. Your speed is ever increasing as you accelerate, but the engine changes RPMs based on the gear you’re in.
I progress with power on workouts I choose myself, typically ones with the longest TiZ like 2x30 and 3x30 SST. I increase my FTP manually.
I don’t believe in shortening duration. 5x10min sweet spot, for example, is a waste of time IMO, because it’s too short and is probably having you ride in the wrong zone. Better to lower your FTP vanity metric and extend to at least 3x20.