Right. It starts with simple stuff like that.
Hmm, my previous training plans were filled with variable-power-within-a-zone workouts like Ericsson, Tallac, Glassy, Homers Nose, Baxter, Garrowby, Fletcher, Pettit, Townsend, Gabriel, etc.
Yeah, that makes sense in terms of an Input to Result relationship. It is not necessarily intuitive and part of the reason it takes some time to get used to for those that want to use ERG.
Sure, there are many examples of workouts with varied effort within an interval. Aside from the known difference in what happens to hit those targets (shifting and/or cadence change in RES/STD vs letting the trainer/app do the adjust resistance while you hold your desired cadence in ERG), is there something notable in the outcome?
The rider must still respond with more or less power at the pedals so the basic effort change is similar in those cases. The actual execution differs, but again, what does that yield in real terms?
1 Like
Iām not going to make a long list (yet), and to your point practice is partly about reinforcing positive habits. In the real work, the goal isnāt to hold a steady cadence. In the real world, when my cadence drops I slow down and power drops. Why would I want to pedal in backwards world?
In the real world, I burn fewer matches by learning to not overreact to changes in wind or terrain, and instead careful control my response with changes in cadence and torque.
Thats a few more reasons why I arrived at switching to Standard and Sim modes.
- As I covered in detail above, I donāt see it as ābackwardsā, i.e. totally different. It IS different, but I feel itās in smaller ways than some portray.
- Right, and in my examples above I speak about cadence with respect to the basic execution. Itās not the actual āgoalā, but it is a very connected means to an end (apply prescribed power for a desired duration).
- Again, SIM is the only one that actually touches on this because RES/STD are fixed (not dynamic in any way).
I get the basic goal and relative specificity discussed here in detail and abstract. But my main question relates to the relative hair splitting here and lack of any substantive data that correlates to actual adaptations in athletes between each mode.
5 Likes
I drop cadence and:
- power goes up (Erg)
- power goes down (Outside)
Up is the opposite of down. Safe to say that can be called backwards. It is not hair splitting. It actually feels different. And your brain will quickly learn to dismiss it, and silently it becomes normal. Just like within a week or two of cataract surgery my brain stopped seeing the lens in my left eye. But if you pay attention, it is different, or back to my analogy, the edge of the lens reappears in my peripheral vision.
Adaptation is another topic, and Iāll clarify where I see the impact of Erg on that in this and the next paragraph. When working above threshold, Erg can hold you back or push too high a power. I gave an example of that above. When I was using TR workouts and plans, some of the workout descriptions could not be easily followed when using Erg. Yes there is an intensity control in TR. No it is not always convenient or easy to dial that in. Lets dive into that a bitā¦
Power above threshold is very individual, both in terms of % FTP and how deep/long you can go based on anaerobic capacity, and how long it takes to recharge that anaerobic ābattery.ā We could both have the same FTP, lets say 300W, and do a vo2 interval at 120% or 360W. Now if I have 10kJ anaerobic capacity, Iāll burn thru 100% of my anaerobic battery BEFORE the end of the first 3 minute interval. And that will impact my ability to achieve same power on subsequent intervals, and likely compromise my ability to achieve a high amount of time above 90% aerobic capacity. Now lets say you have a 25kJ capacity, youāve only burned thru 43% of the anaerobic battery during that first 3 minute interval. And we havenāt even gotten to recharging and the lack of a good model for predicting time to recharge anaerobic battery/capacity. Just providing a little more color behind why Erg can hold you back or push too much power, unless you design better above threshold intervals.
The primary reasons I arrived at for switching to Standard/Sim came down to a) making indoor pedaling feel more natural, with the same physics as outside where dropping cadence results in lower speed & power, b) reinforcing pedaling dynamics (torque/cadence) to make inside as close to outside workouts as possible, and c) ultimately reducing cognitive load by making inside and outside training to be essentially the same. In an ideal world, Iād like more realistic bike movements too - the InsideRide motion system I have helps close that gap.
1 Like
Iām all for people using any mode they want not to mention mixing use over time in various efforts, like I do for SIM rides in Z along with my other ERG workouts. I see the potential and benefits for people using non-ERG modes in the over-threshold efforts for all the reasons you said.
I mention the ātoolboxā idea frequently and the point is that there are many tools and each has pros/cons. Using non-ERG modes makes sense in many of those cases, and more for people that donāt like it for any reason.
Hey @craigmanning! As @mcneese.chad mentioned, solid work on Taylor- 1 !!! 
I took a look into your ride, Taylor -1. I also took a look at the support ticket to make sure that I was up to speed on everything.
Viewing interval Average Power on the Ride Details Page: Mismatched Average Power between the Workout Graph and Interval Table
I spoke to the team about this. Itās actually how our interval summary is calculated. If you zoom in really close on one of the intervals, youāll notice that the first second of the interval is included in the average. This ramp-up causes a different target power to be displayed in the intervals table.
Power Lag using Erg Mode
Iād look at this suggestion from Support as addressing the fundamentals to trainer health, first. Our support Agent was suggesting some best practices. As an analogy; if you go to your doctors with an ailment, it is best to address the fundamentals of health before diving into specific diagnostics. For example, your doctor will ask, are you sleeping, hydrating and fuelling well? If you are not doing these things first, your chances of recovery are slim.
The same is true when you are addressing technical trainer issues.
If you are already taking care of the fundamentals, then we can dig deeper. I was unable to find a background recording for your ride, Taylor -1. Could you try logging out and back into the app to see if we can prompt those log files to sync with our servers? Then I can take a look at them to see if that tells me anything.
As @WindWarrior mentioned, interference from other devices can impact Erg mode. Did you try the steps I suggested above? Iāll list those steps again below, as these will address interference issues.
Optimal erg mode function relies on a strong connection between your trainer and the TrainerRoad app.
Strengthening the connection between TrainerRoad and your trainer:
With that said, hereās what Iād like you to try:
- Turn off battery saving settings:
- On Android, we can do this via the following:
- Open Settings
- Go to āBatteryā (it may be named differently, depending on the model of the device).
- Turn off Battery Saving
- Make sure Battery Optimization settings are turned off for TrainerRoad -This is something weāve discovered recently- which is a bit different from the phoneās basic battery saving settings. Instead, these are individual settings for each app- which are actively managed by the phone in order to keep apps from using too much of the phone battery. For more information on these settings, I would check the article on this here: Turn Battery Optimization On / Off - Android 6.x and higher (Google) | Verizon
Iāll also go ahead and include the steps here:
- From the Home screen, swipe up to view the Apps List.
- Navigate to:
Settings > Apps & notifications > Advanced.
- Tap āSpecial app accessā.
- Tap āBattery optimizationā. (Note: Apps/services unable to be optimized appear grayed out.)
- Tap the āNot optimizedā dropdown menu (located at the top).
- Tap āAll appsā .Tap āTrainerRoadā, tap āDonāt optimizeā, and tap āDone*ā.
On iOS, we can do this via the following:
- Open
- Scroll down to āBatteryā
- Make sure Low Power Mode is turned off.
I started to dig deeper into this for you and I wasnāt able to see any background recordings for this ride.
- Closeout of all other apps/programs that may be running in the background - This will make sure there are no apps that could be interfering with TrainerRoad. Additionally, weāll want to make sure our devices are completely unpaired from any other fitness app.
- Turn off all other wireless devices in the room including speakers, headphones, keyboards, computer mice, etc.
Let me know how you get on! If you have any questions for me, please just let me know. My DMās are always open too 
.
1 Like
Okā¦logged out and back on. My ipad was not set on low power mode.
I forgot to copy and paste those last couple of points too! Sorry about that. Iāve edited my above post to include those other steps now.
Thanks for logging out and back in again. That allowed those background logs to sync over. Looking at your logs, there doesnāt seem to be anything obviously wrong. However, I noticed that you are using a cadence sensor in addition to your trainer. Could you try removing the cadence sensor and using the cadence from your trainer instead?
In addition, there were a couple of indications that your trainer may have lost connection a couple of times.
With that said, I think it is important we take as many steps as we can to reduce interference.
Hereās how we can do that:
- Closeout of all other apps/programs that may be running in the background - This will make sure there are no apps that could be interfering with TrainerRoad. Additionally, weāll want to make sure our devices are completely unpaired from any other fitness app.
- Turn off all other wireless devices in the room including speakers, headphones, keyboards, computer mice, etc.
- Move the device running TrainerRoad closer to your training setup
- Make sure there is a direct line of sight between your devices and TrainerRoad
- Try a ride with your Wi-Fi router unplugged. - Wi-Fi signals run on the same channel as your devices send signals out on and the interaction between the two signals can cause issues. If the ride with your router unplugged is better, you can change the channel your router sends out signals on. Hereās how: https://www.howtogeek.com/197268/how-to-find-the-best-wi-fi-channel-for-your-router-on-any-operating-system/
- Letās have you try uninstalling any other fitness app - Weāve found that certain fitness apps, such as Wahoo Fitness, can poach wireless connections and prevent devices from being able to stay connected in TrainerRoad. For that reason, letās have you try uninstalling these apps for your next ride, even if itās just temporary.
If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a DM!
I use a cadence sensor because the cadence sensor on an H3 is horribly innacurate.
1 Like
I think the issue is it impacts you and your perception. I dont have any issue with it and dont think about it but it does work exactly as you describe. I ride all the time in erg mode on the trainer. It feels natural to me. I go outside and dont even realize the differences that you describe when I am outside. I just ride.
I get it is not for everyone. I just found more consistency with my workouts using erg mode.
7 Likes
100% this. 
1 Like
Inaccurate cadence readings could be related to interference too. Try those steps I suggested, and see if your cadence readings are more accurate without the cadence sensor.
Just to check, are you calibrating your trainer before each ride? Likewise, are you unpairing your trainer between rides?
Let me know how you get on
Its a known issue on H3āsā¦there is no fix.
I have found that channel 10 is a NoNo. Since I switched to chanel 2 Iāve had zero issues with interface.
Edit: ANT+ lnterface and Wi-fi chanel 10 may cause connectivity issues. Just wanted to clarify.
1 Like
No, not really. Like I said it disappears for me too. Everything about my training improved when I dropped Erg after 2 years of always using it. Itās a longer story and not for this thread.
Aaah okay, thanks for letting me know. I wasnāt aware of the issue.
Aaaah brilliant! So glad that helped you. It can make a big difference!
@craigmanning let us know how you get on after trying those other steps. If you wish, we can bring this over to DMās and report back?
I donāt think this is right. Do you mean torque? Power stays the same regardless of cadence in Erg mode.
