Dylan Johnson's "The Problem with TrainerRoad Training Plans": it's gonna be a busy day around here

[MTPlanet]

I guess I should have been more clear. If there was a family or household plan that allowed for different profiles so the data is tied to the profile. So priced higher for. Say 4 users but priced cheaper. Maybe only available as a annual subscription. Just an idea. I know of a few friends that have both parents that ride and or race as well as kids that race. Just an idea. To add to my point. Many are comparing TR to other services like Peloton. The Peloton service that linked to bike or trendmill is 45 a month but allows for up to 6 users in the home. That could be a deal for some homes

[TooManyDogs]

@DXR

Even if you have a coach, it’s good to start to learn the reasoning behind their plans and give them feedback. They’ll adapt on-the-fly and over the course of a season. TR does too if you use the features. However, a coach will call you out on going over your zones or missing too many workouts and talk through it with you, for a price. If you need that, buy it. If you can’t afford it right now like me, TR is a dead good option.

I like TR. I like a good coach even better if you can afford it. With TR, I have to be responsible for managing the normal stress of life and working in training and adjusting training. With a good coach, they’re an objective person who manage a lot of that for you assuming as an athlete you communicate with them about that.

[DXR]

I prefer your version, well articulated. I’ll pass the edits on to the typesetter and traffic the revised comp for press approval.

[wistoon33]

@Jolyzara

Regarding burnout… I know we all come from different athletic backgrounds and experiences but are people so rigid in their thinking, that when/if a plan is causing them burnout that they keep doing it anyway, “because it is on the schedule”? Wouldn’t common sense tell you to substitute with an endurance ride? Or skip the workout and take a day off? If you know you do better with two workouts instead of three what is stopping you from hitting the trash can button in the corner and putting in a long Zone 2 ride? At some point you have to take charge of your own training.

This really wasn’t the issue. Before AT, the plans wouldn’t change if you took a day off or did a Z2 workout swap. So if you were supposed to do 2x12 SS this week and 2x16 next week, you’d miss the 2x12, but still be expected to do 2x16 the following week. Sure you could manually switch that back to the previous workout, but most didn’t. Instead they pushed on trying to do the 2x16, failed, got pissed and deleted the whole block instead of having to manually change every workout hoping you got it right. I did this more than once. Same if you got sick. The plans didn’t adapt and people fell behind and ultimately didn’t finish the blocks. Since AT, I have to believe they saw a vast decrease in failures.

[TooManyDogs]

@DXR

I prefer your version, well articulated. I’ll pass the edits on to the typesetter and traffic the revised comp for press approval.

I will also ad I think with AT, workout alternatives, and TrainNow that TR is improving and making it a little more helpful in creating more flexibility and adjustments automatically.

[ArHu74]

This would be 50/50 as polarised 80/20 refers to days not TiZ

[greenbike]

I was one of the people who ran into a “burnout”. First time one year ago (trying for two months), second time last November (trying for one month only, polarized base plan).
I forgot what the issue was last year, but this year it was this: Hard days felt easy, easy days afterwards felt too hard because I wasn’t recovered enough. If pushing through easy days, I couldn’t manage the next hard day. If I left out the easy days, the hard days where much too easy (I even started switching for “breakthrough” workouts). AT didn’t want to settle down properly in my case. I probably answered some questionnare incorrectly.

But I figured it was because of missing “base”: Never did much endurance sports in my life and my body simply wasn’t used to the stress. Compared to colleagues I noticed that I could not afford two hard days in a row. Also my nutrition wasn’t good enough.

So I switched to some kind own “polarized plan” (1-2 HIT/week, lots of easy rides, make sure I am sufficiently recovered). The results are showing - I am hitting PRs all the time, and it’s fun.

But I will come back to TR in some months: I do like the product, I like the gamification aspect of it and it will probably help me to adjust the ramp.

[TooManyDogs]

@greenbike

Compared to colleagues I noticed that I could not afford two hard days in a row.

Is there a reason you were trying to do two hard days in a row?

[greenbike]

@TooManyDogs

Is there a reason you were trying to do two hard days in a row?

Just fun days and once a multi-day tour. Not for training purposes

[TooManyDogs]

Nothing wrong with that.

[Janhein]

@greenbike

Just fun days

“We conclude that high-intensity interval training triggers opioid release…”

[FatBoySlim]

Hmm… Not wanting to argue so I will give my point of view as I have switched to polarized plans.

I am fing thrilled with them. When I chose it around a month ago I thought it was just the old set in stone polarized plan… Did a ride… then got… CHECKING ADAPTATIONS??? WTF? Polarized is adaptive. Holy SHITE! I am on a low intensity plan of 3-4 hours a week but have been using train now to get extra time in around 7-9 hours a week until I got sick and almost every ride I get an adaptation.

Surprised and thrilled.

[FatBoySlim]

@MTPlanet

I guess I should have been more clear. If there was a family or household plan that allowed for different profiles so the data is tied to the profile. So priced higher for. Say 4 users but priced cheaper. Maybe only available as a annual subscription. Just an idea. I know of a few friends that have both parents that ride and or race as well as kids that race. Just an idea. To add to my point. Many are comparing TR to other services like Peloton. The Peloton service that linked to bike or trendmill is 45 a month but allows for up to 6 users in the home. That could be a deal for some homes

This has been asked for many times in many different ways. Its really never gotten anywhere.

[Lennyeddy]

I’m not smart enough to add anything to the discussion, I just want to say it’s cool TR doesn’t censor/delete this thread. A lot of brands would have deleted a thread like this before any would have seen it. Debate is good for everyone.

[OreoCookie]

If anything, they have added features. Without threads like this, I doubt we would have e. g. the polarized plans.

[TheBandit]

Hot take.

I think any highly detailed pre written training plan is not worth the paper, or pixels it’s displayed on.

These become more worthless in a linear ratio with time.

1 day - possibly ideal
1 week - still possibly ideal
1 month - very unlikely to be ideal
Months - worthless

In order to prescribe any kind of training plan, a considerable volume of information on the athlete needs to be understood.

This information needs to be updated daily.

Without this information, the plan, any plan, is trash.

I see great potential in online training prescription. However, if the software does not have the required data before it prescribes the days training, it’s the dark ages.

Ideal online training prescription.
Software captures athletes sleep data.
Software captures athletes 24hr HR data.
Software captures athletes 24hr HRV data.
Software captures athletes weight.
Software captures athletes well being survey data.
Software collects athlete survey on current fueling stasis.
Software understands athletes time availability.
Software understands athletes recovery availability.
Software prescribes that days training.
Software records training data.
Software collects athlete survey on session.
Software collects athlete survey on session fueling.
Software analyzes training data.
Software adjusts future prescription.
Software recommends fueling strategy.

Without talking to the athlete, even with all this data, it could still fail.

[Helvellyn]

@TheBandit

These become more worthless in a linear ratio with time.

1 day - possibly ideal
1 week - still possibly ideal
1 month - very unlikely to be ideal
Months - worthless

Like weather forecasts. Hard agree.

[Jolyzara]

@TheBandit

Hot take.

I think any highly detailed pre written training plan is not worth the paper, or pixels it’s displayed on.

These become more worthless in a linear ratio with time.

1 day - possibly ideal
1 week - still possibly ideal
1 month - very unlikely to be ideal
Months - worthless

In order to prescribe any kind of training plan, a considerable volume of information on the athlete needs to be understood.

This information needs to be updated daily.

Without this information, the plan, any plan, is trash.

I see great potential in online training prescription. However, if the software does not have the required data before it prescribes the days training, it’s the dark ages.

Ideal online training prescription.
Software captures athletes sleep data.
Software captures athletes 24hr HR data.
Software captures athletes 24hr HRV data.
Software captures athletes weight.
Software captures athletes well being survey data.
Software collects athlete survey on current fueling stasis.
Software understands athletes time availability.
Software understands athletes recovery availability.
Software prescribes that days training.
Software records training data.
Software collects athlete survey on session.
Software collects athlete survey on session fueling.
Software analyzes training data.
Software adjusts future prescription.
Software recommends fueling strategy.

Without talking to the athlete, even with all this data, it could still fail.

Like anything the reality is likely somewhere in between. We often shift workouts on the day and sometimes even in the middle of the workout. But there also is a framework or a “big plan” or where we want to go and how we want things to progress.

Like you said, there are just too many variables to consider, especially teaching and coaching teens. Up all night on the phone talking to a friend? Studying all night and not sleeping for that AP test? Not eating lunch (super common). Someone posted a pic to Instagram but didn’t tag you? (Day ruined). That said, I think having a general plan is a necessity… otherwise you are just making it up as you go and that certainly can help you be better but is hardly optimal.

You need to have a plan. You need to be flexible.

[wildone]

Sorry for resurrecting old cursed thread, but while looking into HV plans, I feel like to do it.
State of HV plans have been changed quite a bit compared to that of back in time.

to

(my current PL are accounted, but for sure structure changed)

To my eyes current structure of HV plans are less likely to burn out someone(not to mean training novice) and also have shock absorbing layer named “Adaptive Training”. Close to optimal for time crunched cyclists? I think so, yes.

[MI-XC]

@wildone

To my eyes current structure of HV plans are less likely to burn out someone(not to mean training novice) and also have shock absorbing layer named “Adaptive Training”. Close to optimal for time crunched cyclists? I think so, yes.

Yes, they have gotten much easier and have a fail safe with FTPd and AT. This is my 3rd year on HV plans and they’ve gotten too easy for me actually. I’ve now had to piecemeal plans and alter them heavily to get the proper stimulus.