Dylan Johnson's "The Problem with TrainerRoad Training Plans": it's gonna be a busy day around here

I’m surprised no one brought up his post about the anniversary of his video and still seeming very anti-TR.

  • Do you have a link to said post, for those of us who don’t follow him?

I was surprised too. It’s kind of just a petty, click-bait post though and shows the real intent.

Chad, it’s a post on YouTube. I can’t work out how to share it. He’s edited it since posting it

5 Likes

Did his edit change the tone of his post?

This isn’t correct.

The Polarized Plans are being used by a lot of athletes to great success. The current iteration of the plans tests just one possible iteration of Polarized, and there are a lot of different alterations we could test.

We’ve been collecting data on their usage all along, but it’s been quite tricky to form reliable conclusions from it due to sample sizes and compliance rates that introduce too many variables.

That said, we do plan on updating the plans and will use data and athlete feedback in that process, just as we will continually update all of our training as we gain new insight.

I want to make it clear we aren’t beholden to any specific training approach. We want to find the best ways to make people faster, regardless of what that is. :slight_smile:

26 Likes

I thought so.

When i first saw it pop up I thought that it was an overly snarky pot shot at TR that was purely to restoke the flames of one of his hottest topics.

He’s in a privileged position, and for someone that claims to be so heavily motivated by research he and the crew he works with seem to often miss some of the facts.

I enjoy Bonk Bros and the Matchbox, and a lot of his videos, but sometimes the stuff he says is hard to listen to.

3 Likes

I was wondering if we would see this thread resurface. He also decided to mention TR again during the most recent Matchbox podcast. :face_with_peeking_eye: :joy:

2 Likes

Regarding Periodization, this is one of the common complaints from athletes about textbook Polarized approaches. It’s tough to fit that strict framework into Base and Specialty Phases.

We have some ideas on how to address that that we’d like to try.

All of that said, has your friend submitted a ticket to support? If they are telling Adaptive Training their workouts are too intense with post-workout surveys, then it will be giving them easier workouts that are more achievable for them.

12 Likes

Yes please.

3 Likes

I’m doing the LV climbing road race plan for the second time. Except this time I’m skipping the SS workout (3 intense sessions was too much for me) and replacing it with longer Z2 rides.

However, that side of my brain doesn’t like skipping workouts because I get a sense of completion knowing that I’ve ticked the boxes. And besides that’s why I’m paying for TR.

Ultimately what I would like (which may be in the works?) is the ability to do a mid volume polarised plan. Where I will have two intense workouts (as per usual), and 2 or 3 longer Easy workouts in the 3-4 hour range.

Let me determine how many days and what duration I want to train and customise a polarised plan that meets those needs.

Yes. Easier said than done. I respect that.

It appears as though a lot of people are Frankensteining their low volume plans in a similar way. Just wish it was more structured.

2 Likes

This describes what following a current MV Polarized block would be like. The “2-3 longer easy workouts in the 3-4hr range” is a longer than what our plans would have for most athletes, but you can easily swap the shorter workouts for longer ones using Workout Alternates.

We’d like to build this too

7 Likes

Honestly, I think AT fixed everything he’s mad about in his video. Since starting with AT, I’ve yet to fail a workout and have completed every block I’ve started.

20 Likes

C) All of the above

From my potentially questionable memory… TR did try A) initially. But there was more than a little pressure shown here in the forum, FB, etc. for them to answer the criticisms leveled by DJ. They did so with B) in answer to those requests.

Let’s also remember the years long comments in the same light as DJ’s, shared by forum members well before his video ever saw the light of day. He was far from the first to question TR plans, burnout and all that surrounds it. I dislike DJ’s approach and think he made some mistakes in his analysis, but the fact that it got some deeper feedback shared by Nate was a worthwhile result vs shallower comments from the TR team to similar comments up to that point.

Neither side is “clean” in my eyes as both took a few not-so-subtle swipes at the other in their discussions / reviews. Could be a little tit for tat, but either way there were comments made that I think distracted from worthwhile review and discussion.

Looking at the present state of TR via their altered initial plans (different than what DJ tried) and adding in AT/PL’s/AIFTPD and such lead to a very different experience for users now vs what was in place even 2 short years ago.

I used to have to apply lots of plan manipulation with the old system to get through training blocks. But with all I mention above, I am rolling through plans over and over a gain with minor tweaks beyond AT and having as good or better results vs the mega-mods I used to employ. People still leveling the same complaints of old without context of the current state are making a mistake, IMO.

TR is not perfect, and there is still room for improvement in the plans and service. TR would likely agree with that as they seem to have “continuous improvement” baked into their company culture. So I expect we will see more changes for the better as time moves on.

21 Likes

Thanks. On another note; how does TR define polarised? My understanding is it’s approximately 80/20 however, when you look at TR’s MV plan it’s closer to or less than 60/40. Assuming my 3rd grade math is correct… :confused:

What exact metric are you using for your POL split evaluation?

Check out the intro thread for more than a little discussion on how & why TR set the plans the way that they did.

2 Likes

Can confirm. I am no amazing athlete by any means, but every workout I get served is challenging in the right way. If I answer honestly about how a ride feels, AT backs off what I struggle with. This works surprisingly well in the triathlon plans too, where training fatigue comes from swimming and running, which are outside of AT

3 Likes

The 80/20 rule? It’s in their literature, and their HV follows this model.

The high-volume 8-week Experimental Polarized Plan incorporates two 3-week loading cycles, each followed by a recovery week. Its total training intensity distribution is

92% Zone 1, 1% Zone 2, and 6% Zone 3

when measured by time-in-zone. Overall it averages about 9h training time per week, with a weekly maximum of 11.5h.

The plan’s 5th week serves as a good example of its overall structure. The previous week is focused on recovery, so this week begins the plan’s second load cycle.

2 Likes

It’s not a bad question. But perhaps mostly a sign that polarized is not that well defined.

Based on number of high intensity workouts, time in zone or the more pragmatic “Do 2 - or occasionally 3 - hard workouts per week - the rest endurance”?

I kinda like the part from the training program that you showed.

Good to discuss, but I am not the one to answer those questions. I just wanted to get more specific info from you so TR can make sure they see how you are evaluating the plans.

ETA: @AussieRider I will point out that there is some detailed breakdown of the plans and volumes in the first post I linked above. From memory, Jon also expands on the options and choices in the depth of that thread as well.

Aside from that, it’s best if we migrate that POL related discussion over to the thread I linked, since it is not the focus of this topic. I may move some of these posts over there to get things where they belong, but I’m evaluating if/when to handle that at the moment.

4 Likes

People would complain since what is listed above is not polarized training

Lately it seems like a lot of people seem to be clamoring for a plan that is just all Z2

5 Likes