Dylan Johnson's "The Problem with TrainerRoad Training Plans": it's gonna be a busy day around here

Training
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I’m really looking forward to the TR response to this, I know they’ll take the feedback in stride and share their insights rather than be defensive. (I’m hoping anyway.)

For the record, my coach isn’t a Youtube poster, but he told me the intensity was too much during my first consultation with him, aligned to what DJ said. I don’t think the persecution of DJ should have resulted by many as a result of that video, his arguments were pretty concise (and it seems many would agree with his position).

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Who is your coach?

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I’m not sure that you’d know him, but if you let me know what city you’re in, and you’re close I’m happy to give a recommendation.

No coach on the planet is going to prescribe 6 months at that intensity before an A event, SSB1&2 is tough, to take on a build and specialty phase after is madness. YMMV, but I’m sure if we could see data on plan completion rates (would be even better with surveys on why people don’t finish the entire base, build, specialty programs) I’m sure it would be quite evident.

Disclaimer, still a TR subscriber, still they’re good folks, just realizing why I wasn’t completing or losing interest through the program, it became evident when I saw how a coach approaches a “6 months until A event” cycle. DJ’s video just helped summarize and maybe validate what my coach said when we first started talking about the longer term plan.

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2242

For the past month I’ve been doing a LITHV/HITLV type plan – only 2 days of intensity/wk @ 97% + as much Z2 as I can cram in (~16hrs/wk) – and I’m already far ahead of any TR plan in terms of 'Week 7" workouts.

All I can say is I almost never feel knackered and when I do it’s about a 4/10 vs the 8/10 fatigue I got doing TR HV plans. Doing MUCH less and getting stronger is always nice.

The intensity of TR is fine, it’s the frequency that’ll kill ya! :laughing:

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2243

Whilst I don’t know what or who FasCats is, I took a similar approach following comments made by Pete on the Podcast.

I shuffle my TR workouts so that my hardest or the most important (as gauged by me) workout comes first. Then Sweet Spot, followed by endurance. I will often finish my prescribed TR workouts on a Friday with more Sweet Spot. This sets me up nicely for the weekend.

Having that decrease in intensity throughout the week is, for me, both mentally and physically beneficial.

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2244

Ben Kanute did Galena +3 with added zone two/three time today. At least something very similar. Apparently pros do like sweetspot too. :sweat_smile:

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I’ve been training for a few years with / without a coach and I know my recovery was fine.

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Well, assuming your power data is correct and you have been healthy, I don’t know what other conclusion to draw from what you shared with us. You say your recovery is fine, but just have a look at your data.

When was the last time you were coached? Was that recently? Have your life circumstances changed (job stress, family stress, young children)? Have you been sleeping enough?

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My power data comes from a new KickR - I have no reason to doubt it.

I was coached a coupe of years ago. At that time my commute was 80miles per day more than today - my job stress is much less.

The conclusion is - we all have to find what works for us.

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2248

I would say this is to be expected for SSBMV1. Though not so much for SSBMV2.

For what it’s worth, traditional base doesn’t evolve around 1-2 sub threshold sessions per week.

Anyway, the mid volume base plans have 1-2 threshold sessions plus a mix of endurance, sweetspot, and VO2 max. So ultimately, very similar to what you have done before.

IOW, I doubt your plateau was due to the plan itself. It was either too much and you didn’t realize or you were in for a plateau anyway. Likely because it seems like you reduced volume quite by a bit (2 sub threshold sessions plus 5-6 hours of endurance vs 5-6 hours from the sweetspot plans).

This sounds like you have introduced a new way of measuring power. Wouldn’t be surprising if this is the culprit.

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The KickR correlated well with my Stages PM

Not plateaued - coming off a quiet off session / 1 month Sufferfest.

For me - I need those long Z2 rides.

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You seem to have figured things out for yourself. Though I guess there is merit in considering some of the questions and recommendations expressed in this thread.

Whatever it is, happy training.

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This is my approach too.
On adaption weeks I also find that getting longer workouts done early in the week means I’ve got less boring noodling to do and I’m compliant with the prescribed plan.

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2252

Yep - lots of good suggestions in this thread worth considering.

For me the most important is that we are all different and we should do whatever we find works for us.

Happy Training.

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2254

After following this thread since the beginning I just want to chime in… trying to be a bit objective…

Background: Did TR LV, got good gains as a noob, wanted to ride more, tried MV and got burned out. This winter I really wanted to ride more structured, and also more consistent, but knowing that I got burned out from the MV plan, I was lost…

And I think that being lost is worse than anything, since I was quite new to the sport (started in 2018, just noodling around, 2019 got a watt meter and went hard allt he time, 2020 I was a bit lost).

Fast forward to October 2020:
Got a coach who setup a polarised schedule, did 2 intensity days per 8-10 days maybe, with some tempo intervals thrown into my zone 2 days. All in all I rode about 7-9 hours a week.

For me this has worked perfectly due to the following very simple reasons:

  • I am way more motivated to get on the bike because every workout is not a mental test
  • I spend more time on the bike
  • When I need to go hard, I feel motivated to do that because otherwise its usually just volume which is mentally less fatiguing
  • I sleep better
  • I never feel wrecked after a workout, the only time is when I have done testing…

My highest FTP on TR was last summer I believe, 290w @ 81kg ish. It is now 285w @ 77,5kg… and its just February…

The past 2 weeks I have been riding 40 hours while on vacation, and being able to do that is completely new to me… and my subjective feel about this is that TR doesn’t prepare you for spending a lot of time on the bike, but rather just how intensity feels on the bike…

Yesterday I did 3x20min (8 min rest in-between) @ 270w in 32c sun (combined with around 2,5hr of zone 2 before and after intervals). This is after 36 hours on the bike the last 10 days… something that I honestly feel is something that I couldn’t have done if all I had with me going into vacation was TR LV plan…

Take away:
I feel that the take away is a little bit like rolling resistance when discussing tires… You want to feel the road buzz (intensity) because you feel that its fast (making you fast)… while a lower pressure (polarised) on a wider tire might be as effective, it doesn’t give you that buzz… hence you choose what you feel is giving you more… And this ends up burning people out…

And if the only response people get when they burn out is “are you sleeping enough and drinking 120g carbs per bottle / workout?!” its gonna lead to a lot of people who are lost…

Now this is of course just N = 1, but I honestly think that TR would gain a lot more by introducing a polarised plan, and picking up those who doesn’t fit in the square box otherwise…

Like some have mentioned before, telling someone to just substitute their Sunday ride with a z2 ride, or doing other changes to the plan, is not why people pay for TR… the product is mainly the plans (and more)… and its not as simple as just changing things on your own… If people had the knowledge for that, they probably wouldn’t pay for TR in the first place :slight_smile:

Looking forward to the podcast in 43min!

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Yeah, a lot of that “no pain, no gain” still in the back of my mind and I suspect many others. Going slow and easy can’t possibly make me faster :slight_smile:

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Question for those hitched to the strict POL wagon…

What does the ideal 4-5hr endurance ride look like in terms of IF or zone distribution within the ride?

Saying it should be (coggan) Z1/Z2 is a huge range. That’s all the way from soft pedaling/noodling at a pace that could be done indefinitely to what I would do for an IM bike leg or even a fast solo century (0.75 IF). That becomes pretty darn fatiguing after 3hrs or so and would, imho, be more difficult to complete 3 times a week than doing 5 SS sessions.

From browsing DJ’s rides it looks like he sets a hard cap of like 70% FTP or so, and then is almost always within 20 watts of 60% FTP, making the total IF around .6…but it’s hard to say without knowing his exact FTP in January. Also looks like 99% of the time is pushing the pedals. Almost no soft pedaling/coasting on descents.

Now I’ll go get my popcorn ready for the TR podcast.

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Various coaches I know cap it a 70% to ensure you dont go to hard.

0.65 IF for 3.5 - 5 hrs is typical.

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I only kinda use power to direct these types of rides. Mostly I use RPE, breathing, and HR. That said, it might be more beneficial to keep a “steady” power and let the other factors do what they do (i.e. it should feel harder in hour 5 than in hour 1). IF-wise, my LSD rides are like DJ’s 65-70%.

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Wow, after the Adaptive Training announcement today this turned out to be a very poorly timed for Dylan Johnson.

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