Discouraged. FTP won't increase

Your description seems a great reflection on many TR athletes.

There are many threads on your exact issues. Hypothetically, TRs new Adaptive training plans may address these issues. Prior to that you simply have to tune your training to be ideal for you, not some imaginary average cyclist human that TR invented.

The above posters are right. Focus first on reducing intensity days. Try just 2 hard days a week. Replace the other days with Z2 rides. Hit your hard days hard.

As noted, invest in sleep. Make any changes possible to facilitate this.

Usually when athletes plateau, especially with TR’s style of regular sweetspot training, doing more training is often not the solution. Commonly, TR athletes will improve from a completely different training intervention. This is not an attempt to begin yet another debate on the merits of different training philosophies, just an observation myself and many others have made.

In fact, listening to the podcast, it seems like TR are finally realizing or at least admitting that their training plans are not suitable for everyone. Adaptive training is them trying to improve and further individualize these plans.

Personally, I’d take a full week off. Then begin a polarized, pyramidal or hybrid polarized training block for a new stimulus. A block of training that focuses on rest, higher volume endurance training and very high quality high intensity training.

Worth a try.

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That’s exactly my same experience, I started last year at 209 went as high as 222 on the specialized block. Took a couple weeks off and retested at 209 but I feel that although the numbers are very close my experience is different this time. I am able to finish all the workouts and my heart rate is prob 5 bpms lower than last year. I am 47 with family, job and kids. And I am doing LV and trying to add extra Z2 rides when I can.

How is one to know what is ideal for you? I mean, maybe this is the path that everyone takes where you try a few things until it fails, then adjust and see if the next thing works? Fair enough.

Can you give an example of what you mean by a Z2 ride? There seems to be several definitions of what the different zones are. I apologize for such a rudimentary question, really just trying to learn.

Ugh. This is seriously exactly what I feel like I’ve been doing for some time now. The LV plans weren’t doing anything so I worked hard to get to a MV (ish) plan.

Worth a try, right? Thanks for the advice, I think I’ll do just this. I’m leaning towards taking the rest of this week off (it’s Tuesday, Monday was the ramp test), then next week try the second block of General Build MV with only two or three days of intensity and two or three days of endurance rides.

Thoughts?

This might be part of your issue, the meat is important, but don’t discount the veggies. I do all the warmups and cooldowns and tack on extra cooldown because the z1 and low z2 stuff is super important. That said, I’m pretty sure that doesn’t account for over 100 TSS less than what the plans call for. I’m thinking you should shift back to low volume, and add some additional easy rides, including the warm ups and cooldowns, but also maybe an easy Sunday ride rather than the expected SS ride. I’m thinking your TSS could be higher even with lower intensity.

I would also be careful looking at that time period you were questioning. It began towards the end of the season last year and that included a large bump. 15 watts is great. But all good things must come to an end. It’s a natural progression for you to lose some fitness post-season and through the winter months. That’s where rest and recovery can be a friend. Perhaps you tried to maintain it too long and your body is really asking for a break. I would consider a week off, maybe a couple of weeks of flexibility, but little intensity and then start the low volume block with some gusto.

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I like the low volume plans and tack on a zone 2 ride either on Friday or do my 3 rides Monday, Wednesday, Friday and do an outside ride on Saturday. I have done mid volume sweet spot base in the past, but had a 40 hour work week. Working 10 hours a day 5 days a week makes mid volume harder.

Weight training? Specifically legs, because friends don’t let friends skip leg day, bro.

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There is no evidence to suggest that resistance training has any appreciable impact on FTP in non-sedentary individuals.

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I’ve made this mistake before - don’t skip the “recovery” workouts, or the rides in the recovery week. They are your z2 endurance rides that you need to develop/keep up aerobic endurance. Skipping them works fine for a while, because that type of fitness lasts a long time, but at some point you’ll need to get back to it. Otherwise you’ve turned the plan into a pure HIIT plan.

As for suggestions in what to do instead of the Sunday sessions - best would be a long outdoor ride (3h plus), but if you haven’t got time for that as long as possible indoors, something like a long pettit. I always found these impossibly boring, but riding on rollers and listening to music works for me.

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My absolute first response is sleep. You wrote ‘possible for sure’ → which I read as ‘for sure’.

Training doesn’t make you faster. It breaks you down, which triggers adaptations to improve performance that only take place during rest. Therefore rest needs to be taken at least as serious as the effort on the bike.

I speculate you could get better results by going with low volume, and increasing your sleep with 1hr per night. I further speculate you would feel more energetic and healthier too, with less training and more rest. If possible, look into all possibilities to improve sleep quality itself too, and lower daily stress.

I hope this helps in some way. The advice is of course colored by my personal experience that I need to take recovery very seriously. And lastly, enjoy the process :wink:

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Sensible comments there- to me it looks like the OP could do with someone to give him some light coaching/mentoring to get the balance right.

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I’ve mostly seen my FTP go down since I started with TR but I think Im faster and more sustainable. FTP is just one metric don’t let it get you down. I for one will be glad when we shift to Adaptive Training which will I believe consider much more.

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Seems like nobody has asked the key question…what are you training for? Do you have a target event or are you just trying to get your FTP as high as you can and that is the goal?

There is something else happening beyond skipping warmups and cool downs. Your TSS is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than than the MV plan calls for. It really sounds like you’d benefit from turning down the intensity but upping the hours. I know not everyone can do that, but the honest truth is you’ve seen a 15 point increase in 6 months, which I think is good for someone in their 40s working on 300 TSS per week. I’d move to the Low Volume plain and ensure you nail every workout, and then add additional Z1 or Z2 rides as time allows.

I’m in my 50s and my FTP is pretty flat. I’ve personally plateaued and I can’t handle adding more SS training so I’ve been trying other platforms and styles. I’m currently testing out a polarized approach. Mentally, it’s hard to accept doing 4 easy rides (most of them longer) and only one hard ride, but physically, it’s still demanding due to all the hours. My plan is to use this block to increase my time in the saddle and then eventually add more intensity while holding the longer volume. If that doesn’t work, I might just have to accept that at my age, holding my FTP but gaining years is a win.

Oh, addressing your question on the zones, TR uses the following 7 zone approach.
Z1 * Active Recovery. (<55% FTP )
Z2 * Endurance. (55% - 75% FTP )

  • Tempo. (76% - 87% FTP )
  • Sweet Spot. (88% - 94% FTP )
  • Threshold. (95% - 105% FTP )
  • VO2 Max. (106% - 120% FTP )
  • Anaerobic Capacity. (>120% FTP )
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Yeah, when I didn’t get the numbers I wanted or expected, I just re-tested, got a higher number but not sure that my subsequent workouts were productive. Sweetspot workouts became threshold, tempo became sweetsport and VO2 became impossible.

Given your age, and given your amount of sleep, I’m wondering if you could do more with less. Less intensity and fewer hard workouts. e.g, one hard VO2 workout per week, with the remainder being sweetspot or endurance. That might give your body a better chance of adapting.

If, like me, you’re a rider with a higher anaerobic capacity, then perhaps look at doing longer tests. I’m now sold of Kolie Moore’s protocol: The Physiology of FTP and New FTP Test Protocols

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Ahh yes, I was in your shoes just a year ago! I won’t be able to add anything new to the thread - some answers above are great, but I’ll re-iterate things that worked for me so that you could use it as a “social proof”:

  1. Progressive overload is a must, this is the first thing that forces your body to adapt. Brennus posted a great explanation above. This is the principle that people have in mind when they talk about “being consistent in your training is priority #1
  2. Reduce intensity, and, possibly, increase volume, as TheBandit and others have mentioned. You can do a crazy amount of endurance rides, and it kicks your body adaptations via the same pathway. You still need some intensity, but the ideal ratio is different for all of us. Just follow 1) when you do it
  3. Rest and nutrition are as important as workouts. No exceptions for us old[er] folks. How well you rest defines how much volume & intensity your body can take regularly. And nutrition is what powers you body during workouts and rest. It’s garbage in - garbage out in a nutshell.

…and no, it’s not your genetic potential :slight_smile:

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Trial and error, or hire a good coach and increase the chance you will significantly reduce the amount of trial and error. I’m almost twenty years older, moderately stressful job, kids are in twenties so a bit of a different situation. However I’ll say simply going to the gym twice a week for Stages power based spin classes plus a weekly outside ride or two got me to roughly 220-250W FTP (from looking at HR on intervals) but no real endurance for longer 2+ hour rides. Doing TR got me the same FTP range but better endurance for longer rides. Bookending the two years with TR was doing something different and both times FTP increased. It appears my body responds better to frequent but small doses of intensity and a lot of endurance/tempo riding.

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This winter I have typically just been doing Pettit twice a week. While it was nicer out I would do a similar 60-90 minute outdoor ride trying to hold about %65 FTP. During Base I have been able to manage 3 days of sweet a week along with the 2 Z2 rides. I did 2 VO2 Max blocks with 2 interval days, 2 Z2 days and a shorter Zwift race during the winter and a local CX TT series during the fall on the last day. I think trying to do 3 VO2 interval days would have been too much, maybe a low end sweet spot ride would be ok in place of the short race.

I would say since adopting this instead of exactly following a TR plan I have nailed just about every single workout which I think is the biggest thing. In the past I found that I was fine for the first week of a block, but by the third I couldn’t complete the workouts. now I feel myself getting stronger through the block. I realized that workouts should be hard but if you’re failing them regularly they’re too hard or you’re not recovering enough between them.

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Personally, from where you are at the moment, I would suggest you don’t try to be too precise with these regarding power, but build up as you go along. Just go out steady and allow the duration to give you the sense of effort. Do a few, look at how your HR and power is, and then gradually test the boundaries by adding a bit of duration, for example by moving from 2 hrs upwards in increments of 30 mins. Let the power take care of itself, but try to keep it steady, surges or big efforts on climbs. A little punchy climb is not a problem, but you don’t want to be sitting at a higher intensity for too long.

Here is the descriptor from Andrew Coogan’s training levels. Focus on the descriptor rather than the figures. https://velodynamics2.webs.com/traininglevels.pdf

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Please take this as a good natured response, as it is intended! I think the one mistake you’re making is math. :wink:

Your FTP did increase between August and February! You went from 231 to 244, or +13 watts. That’s a 5.6% increase! I am also following mid volume plans, and my FTP went from 246 to 264 in the same time period, a 7.3% increase. Not so different.

Maybe your issue is not that you are doing something wrong with training, recovery, or nutrition, but that your expectations are unrealistic? If you’ve been at it for years (as you say), the gains are harder to come by. Here is my 3 year training history, which has mostly been mid volume. Except for at the very beginning, all of my improvements have come slowly, but steadily, with ups and downs along the way.

So, great job on the improvement! Just keep chipping away at it and your fitness will continue to improve, even if it isn’t always at the rate you want. :+1:

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Might be getting a bit burned out from jumping from plan to plan to plan and not giving it a real break from intensity.

This. Take week or two off. Do some easy riding. You’ve been hammering intervals 4x/week for 6 months, it’s time for a break.

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