Can TR help this ice hockey player improve his conditioning?

Hi all, apologies in advance for the length of this post!

I come to TrainerRoad not as a cyclist, but as a recreational ice hockey player looking to improve his overall fitness and be more competitive with the other members of my league. After reading a lot of the materials here (and other sites more devoted to ice hockey training), and listening to all of the podcasts on YouTube, I’ve come to appreciate the scientific approach to training espoused here, as well as the clear explanations of the various energy systems and how they are trained, which I think should apply equally across all sports/fitness activities. I feel like there’s a lot of synergy between cycling and ice hockey, being that in order to be successful, one has to be able to maximize the amount of watts placed into the ice over the timeframe of the 1 hour game.

I am a 6’5” 49 yo male (117kg), and have played ice hockey for over 25 years recreationally. I’ve always felt my main limitation has been my conditioning, as I’ve never embarked on a sports-specific training regimen. Given I’m almost 50, I figure it’s now or never, being at the point where I have more games behind me than I do in front.

Here are the details of what I am trying to do: as of right now, I am not conditioned to be effective in the game outside of the first 5-10 minutes, after which I find myself sucking wind, and with legs that have gone to jelly. In order to be effective and safe, one has to be able to maintain balance while skating, going through turns, fending off other players, starting and stopping. If the legs are useless and flooded with lactate, none of those things are possible to do either effectively or safely. I find myself coasting a lot which means I’m not in the play or helping the team.

A typical game breaks down like this: there are three, 15 minute stopped-time periods, lasting roughly 25 minutes each (accounting for stops). Hence a complete game lasts roughly 1 hour. Unlike cycling, there are no efforts lasting longer than this (like 3-7 hour rides). Game time is broken up into shifts, where players skate for roughly 1-2 minutes, followed by 1-2 minutes of sitting on the bench. Here is the other marked difference with cycling: recovery times are completely static, where you sit on the bench until the next shift, not moving at all.

I’ve worn a heart rate monitor to my last half dozen games, and they show, on average, roughly 20-30 shifts total (for about 30-40 minutes of active time), with another 30-40 minutes of recovery time. Shifts are further broken down into roughly 30 seconds of “Zone 6”/maximum effort, and about 30 seconds of zone 4-ish effort. For me, this means an average heart rate of 160-165 BPM for the zone 5 parts of a shift (going at maximum effort), and about 135-140 BPM for the remainder. Like I said above, after the first 30 seconds, I find myself coasting a lot in the last half of a shift having no more energy to sustain the effort.

I’m unsure if this structure has a cycling analog, however it might be similar to having a series of 1-2 minute max-effort steep climbs/sprints, followed by 1-2 minutes of coasting downhill without minimal pedaling, lasting roughly 1 hour total.

My wife got me a very nice air bike for my birthday (from Cascade) that revealed my first weakness: I tried to measure my FTP through a series of 1 hour efforts, and found that I could sustain roughly 100-120 watts for 1 hour, while breathing easily and steadily, and maintaining a heart rate of about 130-135 BPM (pedaling RPM about 60). Any higher wattage for more than a few minutes and my breathing gets heavy and I need to slow down. This puts me at about 1 W/kg which is essentially equivalent to an untrained person. I’ve also never had any lab testing done, so I don’t know any other metrics like VO2(max).

Over the past 6 weeks or so, I’ve added 3 hours of Zone 2 training, which is similar to above: about 120 watts sustained for 1 hour, done three times per week, maintaining a heart rate of 130-135 BPM. At the end of each hour, I sprint once to see how much power I can generate, and on average, I can push to about 1000W for about 30 seconds before stopping (this is whole body, legs and arms working together). I’ve already noticed an improvement in that I can skate in the “middle” efforts for much longer (not all out, but not simply coasting), while keeping my heart rate lower and not feeling so tired.

In an ideal world, I think that if I could get my FTP up to near 3 W/kg (meaning I can sustain 250-300W for 1 hour), and if I could perform 30 sets of 1 minute max effort (1000W), 1 min rest intervals, I would have everything I need to maximize what I can do in my sport. However here’s where I’m stuck, as I don’t know how to chart from where I am to get there.

I understand improving FTP is “time under stress”, and that hopefully with my three hours per week of Zone 2-ish training, I can gradually increase the intensity while keeping the 1 hour duration. I’m not sure if I can add more time at this point (my work schedule is hectic), however I feel like I’m far from being limited by 3 hours per week at my current 1W/kg. Is it reasonable to expect a 5-10W improvement per week every 3 hours?

The max effort intervals I can’t grok how to train effectively, as there are so many variables. One approach might be: I know I can do 1000W for 30 seconds, maybe start there, with 1 minute rest intervals, for 30 sets, adding a few seconds or work time every workout/week. After 6 months I should be up to 1 minute work and 1 minute rest at 100%. I’m not sure if this is a reasonable approach, given the different energy systems at play.

Does TrainerRoad offer a plan to achieve goals similar to what I’ve outlined above? Any advice is appreciated!

30 reps of 1 minute at 1000W / 1 minute rest is, some might suggest, an ambitious target.

As a general way to improve your aerobic capacity (cycling specific), your starting rides: 130/135 heart rate for an hour or so 3x per week is a good start. If you keep the all out sprint at the end of the session, maybe the next move is to put one at the half way point too?

The first gains will come quickest and then the rate of improvement will be slower, but still significant.

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For what its worth… I knew people within the San Jose Sharks organization. They’ve since moved on but do know they have done conditioning that included 30-30s on stationary bikes. I am sure there is some benefit of that kind of work for hockey!

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It very well could be! I hear about people who do 300-400W continuous for multiple hours and I figure they must be aliens.

Would it be more reasonable to find a power I can do for 60seconds:60seconds, for 30 sets, and titrate up from there?

Heeeey! I’m so glad you found us, and have found the podcast helpful so far :raised_hands::heart_hands:.

I think you’re in the right place :handshake:. And you have come at a good time. We have just improved the customisability of Training Plans! :partying_face:

I think there is significant overlap between the specific fitness requirements of Mountain Biking and hockey. For mountain biking performance, you rely on three main energy systems; aerobic, anaerobic, and ATP-PC.

It sounds like you’ve recognised that your aerobic energy system needs work, and it’s great you’ve started to work on it. This will lay the foundation to improve your anaerobic and ATP- PC systems, which are required for those repeated sprints and the very quick bursts of power.

A TrainerRoad Training Plan will lead you through this, ensuring that the progression is optimal to you.

I suggest you sign up for TrainerRoad, make a customised Training Plan with Plan Builder v2, and see what you think.

Give it a whirl, and if you decide that it’s not what you’re looking for within 1 month of signing up, shoot us an email support@trainerroad.com and we’ll give you your money back.

For more information on Plan Builder v2, check out this forum post. Let us know if you have any questions!

Maybe put a specific power target out of your mind to start with and go with an effort that replicates the HR numbers you mention in your original post?

You could, for example, try riding hard enough to quickly get your HR up to 160/165 and then hold the HR at that for 30 seconds. Then rest for 60 seconds and go again.

Whether that is repeatable 30 times on your first few attempts is something you will find out by trying.

Here’s a tip. Assess how you feel after each effort. When you feel you could only just manage one more, call it quits for the session - leave one on the table.

That said, I think the 1 hour at 130/135, with a couple of all out 30 second sprints in the hour, 3x per week is going to do a lot for you.

How much ice time do you get?

I’m just guessing but I’m thinking that you get plenty of “intensity” when you skate.

On the bike, all you probably need is general aerobic conditioning. Like lots of zone 2 and throw in some tempo or sweet spot intervals.

If you start smashing intensity constantly on the bike, you may be worn out when it comes time to skate.

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Agreed! Great point.

This is why I think it’d be a great idea to following a Training Plan. Your hockey games will be accounted for in your Training Plan Adaptations, if you are able to record them and upload them into TrainerRoad. You can find out more here..

You can also adjust your Training Approach as needed.

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Life long hockey player and cyclist here, currently age 48. I went through a period of only playing hockey and getting really slow and out of shape. My wife and I bought a Peloton (way back, now just do TR on a Neo) and by doing 3 rides a week, 1 endurance, 1 moderate (threshold) and 1 max (VO2) I saw a huge improvement in my conditioning and speed on the ice.

A TR plan would definitely help but, I think you can also keep it really simple.

1 endurance ride a week, somewhere between 75-80% MHR (basically where you could speak a sentence but, it would feel strained a bit).
1 ride a week where you are doing some threshold work or long V02, for this I would think something like 3-4 intervals at 3-5 minutes all out each interval. These are good for building your recovery between shifts.
1 ride a week where you do something like 30-30s. Again the 30s should feel all out. This is helpful for building recovery and speed for surges down the ice.

if you want to do more volume I would definitely do a TR plan to help manage fatigue. But, following something like the above will help tremendously. And who knows, like me you may end up becoming more of a cyclist than a hockey player :slight_smile: ( I still play once a week thought )

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What does 5 mins “all out” mean practically? As of right now, going “all out” puts me at around 1000W and 30 seconds is all I can do before I can’t do any more. I can’t imagine sustaining that kind of power for a full 5 minutes.

Is there a place I can see all the plans that are offered? Does it require something that monitors heart rate? As of right now, I just use a Polar H10 but it doesn’t record workouts unless you have a paid subscription.

All out meaning the max you can hold for 5 minutes. Definitely not trying to hold 1000 watts. Typically is will start with higher power then decline and maybe you have a little to push at the end. It will take some practice to nail but, the point is to push on your VO2 max which by definition means pushing as hard as you can.

If you don’t have a power meter I don’t think TR is quite as valuable. You can try to do the workouts based on RPE but based on your goals I’m not sure that gains you much.

This podcast has a good description on how to do VO2 intervals based on RPE Watts Doc #23: Training Your V - Empirical Cycling Podcast - Apple Podcasts

In the case of VO2max, “all out” is probably one of the least usefull cliches in the forum IMO.

What is generally recommend by scientists like J. Helgerud, J. Hoff and B. Rönnestad is a heart rate of 90-95% of max heart rate. Even S. Seiler’s famous investigation of 4x4, 4x8 and 4x16 min intervals ended up with 4x8 min being the most effective at a maximum heart rate of 91%, indicating that time in zone beats intensity. Bottom line is that doing VO2max training effectively is demanding but also takes a fair bit of pacing.

Seiler’s 8-minute intervals

This page will give you an idea of what some of the Training Plans entail.

The Training Plans built using Plan Builder v2 are customised to you so I don’t have an exact copy of what your Training Plan would look like. However, this page will give you an idea of what the Plan Builder Process involves and what it takes into account.

To be accounted for by Adaptive Training, you would need to record the game/Workout or have an estimated TSS (training stress score) that you can manually add.
When you look at your heart rate data from your games, what platform do you view the data on?

Even if the games aren’t accounted for by Adaptive Training, I think you’d still benefit from a Training Plan that is customised to your current abilities and unique goals.

Take a look at those resources and let me know if you have any questions :slight_smile:.

100% it is not.

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Thanks for all of the advice offered! What I got as a basic starting point is this (after doing several weeks of different workouts to gauge where I stand and how I felt):

  1. It’s beneficial to continue the long-duration Zone 2-like work to aide in aerobic work capacity. I’ll aim as a starting point to have 3, 1 hour sessions done at an RPE where I can work for 1 hour and shoot for an RPM/wattage where I can sustain it without stopping while keeping HR in the 75-80% range (for me, around 125-135 BPM @ 125W).
  2. 1 day/week of threshold training, which is 6 intervals of 3 mins work, 2 mins rest, at a wattage where I can finish the intervals without being blasted at the end. Based on where I am currently, I can do the 18 mins of work at about 250 watts.
  3. 1 day per week of VO2max work, which is 30 seconds work to 30 seconds rest, for 10 sets. When I last tried this yesterday, if I targeted 500W I could do all 10 intervals while reaching between 155 and 160 BPM. I still felt like I could do a few more when I was finished.

What I’m still unsure of is how these different modalities are progressed: is there a way to limit variables, and focus on progressing a single aspect of all three workouts? One variable might be wattage (a proxy for intensity): focus on increasing the wattage a bit every week in all three exercises? Or progressing time-in-zone (e.g., extending the duration of each exercise weekly)?

I understand how weight-training progressions work, since weight-on-the-bar (force production) is generally the best figure of merit to measure progression, but with endurance I’m not sure.

I will note that after my 5th week of Zone 2 training (cumulative of about 15 hours of training), I’ve noticed that my heart rate has gradually fallen from high 130’s down to the 115-120 level, keeping the wattage constant at about 125W. So maybe the training is giving me a partial answer, in that I need to push the wattage higher to keep by heart rate at the top of Zone 2 as my body adapts. This way I can keep the 1 hour workouts as they fit my schedule pretty well.

For zone 2 just pay attention to heart rate and your power will come up naturally.

In general increase duration of the intervals first, until you hit a limit where you might be pushing into another energy “zone”. However this is a bit flexible.

So as an example for threshold increase the intervals by a minute until you hit your work out max duration availability (the time you have for doing that work out). Let’s imagine that is 3x20 (3 20 minute intervals ) for sake of argument. You should have a good feeling for what threshold feels like at this point and can increase your watts and go back to 3x9s or whatever.

For V02 max intervals. Same thing. Go from 30x30s to 1x1, then 2x2 (work x rest). Since these are all out. You don’t really need to worry about power.

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The threshold intervals are where TR can shine. They do a great job of progressing that type of work in their plans.

Also. I should mention. At 3 minutes you probably aren’t putting much pressure on your threshold capacity. You should be targeting > 8 minutes. Roughly.

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How is the rest period set for threshold intervals? The link above to Seiler’s 4x8min intervals lists two minutes rest. Is a 4:1 work/rest important to the adaptations in threshold work?