It is fun to watch the kids progress like that. It is not fun when they hand you your backside. When my son is that age, I will be 62 and know it will hurt when he destroys me out there. (If he will ever ride his bike).
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Loved the idea…
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On the last podcast (I think it was the last one) Jonathan mentioned doing workouts outdoors on his mountain bike for the added specificity. To me, that’s a pretty marginal difference comparing the performance gains from say a road bike and a mountain bike doing the exact same workout. But that specificity matters to him.
Think about the plans. You could be 18 doing SSB MV II or 68 doing SSB MV II and there is zero difference in the two plans.
But Jonathan sees enough incremental gain to choose one bike over another for the same workout.
Suffice to say 50 years on a body is likely going to present significant physiological differences and the ability for each athlete to “follow the plan” will be much greater than the differences in choosing one bike over another.
It was for this reason that I chose to continue to subscribe to TR, listen to the podcast, visit the forums and use their workouts but I don’t use their plans any longer.
When I started with TR I got the big newb gains like everyone else but the intensity started taking a toll on me and the fun pretty much went away along with incremental gains.
In order for me to get the specificity I needed I hired a coach and explained my situation and he now writes my plans. Less intensity for me, more of a pyramidal approach to training and I am getting another round of newb gains because of it.
The specificity for me was a plan that suits my physiology better. For Jonathan it was switching bikes.
Eventually it looks like TR will come through with some Masters level plans and perhaps I will jump on them. Until then you have to do you and if you are self coached, adjust the plans to fit your needs.
I think the TR plans are really well done and I had sizable gains using them. Ultimately though, I needed something a little more specific to get to the next level. For Jonathan that specific difference was one bike over another but for me it meant needing an entirely different plan. But that’s me…
Age 48
FTP 332
4.1 w/kg
Coached by CTS
Use TR workouts weekly
Would be in favor of Masters plans
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my biggest gains / highest FTP were a result of using the off-the-shelf CTS/Strava plans, club rides, and Time Crunched Cyclist book.
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If I had a predictable work schedule I would not hesitate to work with a coach again. These canned plans have really improved with tech but, IME don’t compare to coaching.
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I believe for older athletes one problem with the plans is the 7 days rotation. Either you need I guess to adapt the plan yourself i.e. more recovery/ easy days in between harder training or TR could come out with 9/10 days rotation for ’vintage’ cyclist. I’m 59yrs, 88kg and current FTP 288.
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I put this together a few weeks ago as I’ve worked out something that is currently working for me, for any who are interested:
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I think the Plan Builder could certainly be enhanced for us Masters folk
It will always recommend High Volume plans for me based on my years of training, experience with interval training, and hours per week I train. Mindset wise it is very hard to ignore the Coach’s recommendation and run with Mid or Low volume!
But… I am 56. I need to do strength and I probably need more rest. But once I have done my HV workouts for the week I have no opportunity for either. Simply treating all who have the same experience and training hours in the same way is a bit blunt. “Masters”, and “Need to allow for strength training” could be check boxes in the Plan Builder that give a more appropriate recommendation
I am my own worst enemy like many competitive cyclists and put my training plan ahead of the other things i should do as a Masters athlete. Yes i could manipulate Plan Builder, develop my own plans etc… , but to me that defeats the purpose of using TR. I am not unique, i am part of a clearly large TR customer group - competitive masters athletes.
FWIW, I get through the HV plans ok and at 100% and I have recently hit an all time high FTP by and w/kg by a descent margin. I have no doubt that the HV plan, and to a lesser degree Chad’s FTP Booster plan are to thank for that. So… I keep doing HV and have no capacity for what maybe a Masters athlete should be doing other than on cycle training
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Yes, I’m suggesting a progressive plan with enough recovery built into the week. The science as I understand it supports 2-3 hard days/week plus adding aerobic endurance to maintain/develop aerobic base.
For example this is a 10.5 hour week (~575 TSS) from the sweet spot base plan I did this year, I’ve captured it using TR workouts:
Notice it only has 3 hard days.
And pulling up an old email with CTS/Strava Gran Fondo plan with 10.5 hours (unknown TSS):
Converting that CTS week to TR workouts gives 10.5 hours and 540 TSS:
Notice it only has 3 hard days.
And a 9 hour week (559 TSS) in TR SSB1-HV:
5 hard days and I skipped the easy day.
Now its hard to say for certain, but I submit that “fresh is faster” approach of 2-3 hard days resulted in getting stronger/faster than doing 5 hard workouts that left me with a lot of fatigue (and a nice bump in FTP too).
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The mistake I have made as a masters athlete is simply trying to do too much and not admitting that 55 year old me is not 45 year old me. For example the MV SST based plans + strength work 3 days a week is too much now. I can grunt through it, but I won’t improve and will probably just get tired and injured.
Switching to the LV plans allows the concurrent strength work and maintains a good level of fitness. But have found no FTP or TTE growth on the bike with that approach. Its not enough bike time.
To keep moving forward on the bike, I needed to shift to a more Z2 (LT1) + two hard days structure and also restrict the strength work to mostly upper body. Seems to me folks are frequently asking for this type of plan, probably 4-5 rides a week as we are bike nerds, plus a couple days of strength/flexibility work. More Z2 than SST so we can do it and recover and move forward without burning out.
It is easy in concept but folks need help with which rides to use, the programming progressions week to week and block to block and of course the strength work.
This is a different approach from the current SST / Threshold based plans (which are very well done for what they are). May also be a deviation from Make You Faster to Make You Fitter. Being less proven puts the TR reputation at risk.
That said, am certain there is a constituency for this type of programming. It could be amazing, as an example, to see a TR blessed Z2 oriented riding program coupled to a whole body strength/flexibility/core program. A mash-up of Coach Chad and Jeff from Athlean-X as example.
At present, I look at TR as a nice interval timer and GUI, use the calendar function and the workout creator. The SST plans I steal from and adapt from time to time. Would love to see some well structured non-SST/Threshold programs to choose from.
If there is ever need for a beta training group, am happy to provide data for such programming and be a lab rat.
Mark
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I have much the same view as you. I only started riding at age 55 with no fitness. Now 60. I dealt a lot with aches and pains and going to physio to be where I am now able to easily ride 4 days a week in the 6-7 hour range. Low volume plan is what I tend to do adding in an easy ride. I am about to expand on that and up my riding into the 7-10 hours of riding a week as working from home and having three day weekends just enables extra riding time these days. I find the current plans dont make sense on the intensity. I just cant handle them without more recovery. My current approach is to find a base program and then do a lot of tweaking so I am not really following any plan that is being devised.
Items that have taken time for me to deal with are:
VO2 workouts at higher percent of FTP. At times they are just too hard on the body yet other times I find I can do them. Depends on the week and when is recovery.
My real challenge is staying healthy as I have found if I do too much I end up getting sick.
Three weeks into a build plan often doesnt go well.
Minus versions are often the best adjustment to make…sometimes though if I end up with too many of them.
Interspersing extra recovery weeks or short periods ie 4 days of light riding facilitates the body adapting to the next round of intensity.
So I enjoy TR. Enjoy the workouts but realize none of this is designed for me to follow blindly.
I have learned a lot from the podcast and the forum so appreciate the effort. I dont think though I can improve any more by just following a TR plan as they all need tweaking for my aging body.
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That’s similar to my weekly CTS plan. I get a little more EM on Tuesdays and Thursdays but intervals look similar, a little more time on Saturday and a little less on Sunday. For a “normal” block that is pretty close and I think I’m around 550-600 TSS. Not having intervals on the weekends means I can maximize those T/Th workouts and really dig deep. The rest of the rides are more of an EM or Spirited EM pace, very manageable. Adopting this for me has been a 50 watt FTP boost.
Excellent post with no easy answer. My perspective 66 y.o., reached cat. 3 level, gave up racing at 55. First I think it is important for all Masters to have a
basic understanding of the physiology of ageing, then you have objective information regarding decline in the cardiovascular, Musculoskeletal, respiratory systems. There is no one size fit all unfortunately. We are all different masters athletes based on genetics, length of consistent training,
and our ability to motivate, and tolerate pain. I think it comes down to you knowing your body. How much training volume and intensity you can handle. No coach can tell you that. I personally always preferred intensity over volume, Saturday rides, my long day 3 hrs., but hard, even 20 years ago. Other riders need more volume. With ageing, knowing the balance between intensity, rest, becomes even more important. In essence, I do not believe Trainerroad can do more for masters, each master athlete is on the training that works for them.
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that´s interesting and kind of similar to what I´ve been doing in trying to do at least 1 or maybe 2 good solid hard Vo2 type workouts every 7 days and then do my longer 4-5 and a bit hours at 100-140kms. Easy days tend to be something like a family walk or ride with my two boys about 10-16km or something. Despite the longer outdoor rides I feel I am usually fresher and feel better on the bike (excluding a poor sleep or something). I haven´t ventured back into the gym for obvious reason yet but will do soon.
Hi there,
Ha ha, Im the 65 year old woman with dodgy bone density. :rofl: :rofl: I agree it would be good if TR addresses the older athlete, with a view to addressing the different needs as one ages. But maybe there isnt much difference in how we train, from how younger athletes train. Youve already mentioned the importance of strength training.(I would add to that walking/running to help with bone density) And TR s always on about sleep (something I don't do enough) but do realise is important. Youve probably read Joe Friels book Fast after 50. He suggests a 9 day training week , so more recovery time. Im about to start SSB2 and it looks harder than SSB1. Youve said youre going into Build phase. I will be interested in hearing how you find it, whether you need more easy days as it looks very hard to me!. Im wondering if you can put in extra days of eg. Petit or Fletcher to space out the hard days. Im not sure how to do that, as usually Ive put one of those in, then moved the hard workout to the next day with no workout scheduled. But if I want to shift the whole thing forwards ,don’t know how you would do that 
Sorry its so long
Hi… no I ´ve done Build quite a few times now, and yes the 2nd part of it particularly can certainly be challenging but (usually) just about manageable. I´ve honestly found a good “tactic” to be just reserving that last couple of % on the ramp test. It´s not cheating or being “soft” as much as putting the ego aside (trying to gain the absolute max number attainable) and thereby making subsequent workouts much more achievable and manageable both mentally and physically. As a result the last couple of builds done like that I´ve actually had better boosts than previously. Strangely as well for me the boost in numbers often don´t come until the 2nd part of builds and the test after that.
Re walking - yeah definitely. Living here in Germany when I finish my season I´ve taken up doing a bit of hiking November to January and it caught me off guard just how tired a 10-20km hike can leave you! I think its a great way of strengthening back, hips (and flexors) and is obviously great for utilising muscles we don’t usually employ riding. The Friel book I find a little old hat to be honest.
Yes, youre right. If you murder yourself on the ramp test the problem is working to that FTP, on days when you are a bit tired. Ive got mine about right , but occasionally I have an off day ,and I either shorten the session, or lower the intensity a tad.
Nothing`s worse than setting an unattainable goal!
I tried fasted riding. Once. Never again!
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56 years old here, been with TR for 3 or 4 years. I tend to ride indoors in the winter, and then try to move out as the weather improves. I freely admit that I am inconsistent with my ability to follow the plans, and that consistency would be the single biggest improvement I could make, but I’m not sure that with everything else in my life this is really possible. When I try and look at my performance objectively, I’m probably a bit disappointed that I haven’t made the gains I thought I would. My FTP largely remains static around the 210 to 220 mark and a w/kg just above 3. The improvements I have made with TR are around my ability to maintain power for longer periods. I’ve been thinking that when i start indoors again I might try something different from the usual plan, more of a straight forward linear progression. My idea is to do 1 x VO2 a week, a couple of sweetspot rides, and then 1 long endurance ride. In 2016 when I achieved my best times I followed this type of approach. Of course it maybe that just by ‘staying the same’ I am improving relatively as i get older, it just doesn’t feel like that, and I also don’t want to accept that I’ve reached my ceiling in terms of what I can achieve with the time I have available. I would really like for TR to provide more appropriate masters plans, taking into account our recovery needs, but probably also the need for more regular VO2 work during SSB1.
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Completely agree, I found I was completely washed out by trying to maintain the sustained build/40k TT plan during my TT season. In the end I took the decision to self coach, lots more LSD, intensity cut down to twice a week, longer steady state intervals and recovery as and when I feel tired not when the plan dictates, so sometimes I could go four/five weeks build then recover other times if I’ve done a lot of racing it might be one week out of three. Made a massive difference to my performance.
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Thanks for sharing, sounds like what I’ve found works too. The big 3 items from science, as I understand it, tell us that endurance athletes:
- need consistent training (“use it or lose it”)
- increasing volumes will improve performance
- proper distribution of efforts: more aerobic endurance than higher intensities
and that is for everyone, regardless of age.
Masters have additional challenges, due to loss of muscle and loss of aerobic capacity. And that requires additional focus beyond the basics above.
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