Becoming more aero, and faster

@brendanhousler I believe you and I are the same or close to the same height @ 6’4". I’m curious if you have dimensions for your current road bike. I’d love to see where we are in relation to one another as I attempt to sort out my own bike fit.

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Are you worried about keeping your knee over the pedal spindle? I’ve had 2 bike fits…one Retul and one more old school and both fitters were proponents of this.

I’m not saying it has to be that way…just curious.

Not at all. The KOPS method has been invalidated by many fitters. I’m just worried about long-term comfort and achieving maximum power transfer.

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center of bars to front tip of arione saddle is about 615mm

middle of BB to bottom of saddle RAIL is 830mm, about 865-875 to saddle top i believe (always hard to get exact measurement for me)

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Thanks @brendanhousler

At 193 cm (6’4") w/ a 95cm inseam my current fit is:
Frame: 60.5cm TT
BB middle to saddle top: 84.5cm
Saddle tip to bar tops: 65.5cm
Saddle drop: 11cm
Saddle tip to center of BB: 13cm

You can def fit into a smaller frame and hit your speed goals. I am 6-4 too and ride an XL size TCR with almost slammed stem. Thinking about going to 58cm SL7 soon. Unless you use ridiculously negative angle stem you won’t be able to get too aero on that bike. Of course you can def save some watts by using aero helmet deep wheels etc but you are catching too much wind with that upright geo rn. Here’s the flat section of my ride today.


So, 20mph z2 ride is totally doable tho my wattage was closer to the upper end of your range. Also, you could drop some weight imo as you’ll be able to go over inclines faster. Practice your cornering too. Breaking eats up tons of speed & energy.

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I’m so envious…

6’3” and currently 207lbs :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Yeah, I’ve resigned myself to this fact. The geometry of this frame doesn’t seem to coincide with riding in an aero position, regardless of what stem I use. I just can’t get that comfortably low. I bought it before I really invested much thought into an aero riding position. It checked some other boxes and the price was right. Definitely not going to throw money into aero-goodies hoping to solve a problem I probably can’t fix.

I guess I could always try a 170mm stem like Stefan Kung…

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FWIW I’m happy to report that my new SL7 promotes a more aero position and is the best fit I’ve achieved on 3 bikes this year (gen1 Domane, 3T Exploro Race, Tarmac SL7). Appointment with fitter in two weeks, and I’m already pretty dialed in right now. Having rented various bikes I was convinced that endurance geometry was better, but now stand corrected. I’d happily ride a century or double on the SL7.

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Our riding evolves, our bodies evolve, we evolve, and that’s OK. My previous bike was a 64cm SL4 Roubaix. LOL they don’t even make them anymore. I can’t find it above but your current bike has too much stack. You don’t even need to go full Kung to achieve your goals to be honest. I started with 120cm stock stem, then went back to 90 because it felt too stretched, and now I am back to 120. My riding style, fitness, power#s are day and night compared to 2018. It takes time to get used to that position but you eventually do. I’d def look at aero helmets too. I recently purchased a Kask utopia and can’t be happier. I have a Rapha lightweight jersey for hot rides but all of my jerseys are aero. I recently purchased a Rule 28 kit. Haven’t tested it yet but I love their socks so it’s kind of promising.

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Curious as to your thoughts on the 3T? I’m looking at a 3T Racemax as a possible future bike with about 85% road 15% gravel riding.

I really liked 3T Exploro as an all around bike, but had some concerns over clearance of SRAM Force 2x crank and bottom bracket. A 1x or wide or Red crank would have resolved the issues. Only appeared on a replacement frame (first frame had carbon or paint crack).

On SRAM Force when swapping frames I ended up with two chainring bolts hitting the frame. Red has no bolts. Wide and 1x cranks have more clearance. Reviewing SRAM specs showed those as solutions. I didn’t look at Shimano GRX specs. First frame was fine, with regards to clearance.

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Might have misunderstood you, but afaik sram force and rival cranks are exactly the same for 1x and 2x? I have changed mine over before. I think there is extra clearance on 1x, at least I needed shorter chainring bolts, but it’s not because the cranks are 1x specific.

SRAM Frame Fit 2021 specifications:

Page 35:

The crank bolt clearance relative to frame is basically W1. More precisely, W1 is from crank bolt to center of bottom bracket.

Pages 37-38 give the following:

  • 37.3mm for 12-speed Red/Force/Rival
  • 39.8mm for 12-speed Wide Force (43-30 Wide)
  • 40.1mm for 12-speed 1x Red/Force (diagram for 1x is page 36, W1 is used on both)

relative to 2x Red/Force/Rival, an extra 2.5mm clearance for Wide Force, and an extra 2.8mm for 1x. The Red 2x crankset has no crank bolt, and therefore has additional clearance as the distance from small chainring to centerline (W3) is the same for Red/Force/Rival.

I had two mechanics look at it, and both called SRAM.

Hope that clears things up.

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This is probably splitting hairs, but I still don’t think it’s the cranks themselves that create the problem. It’s the chainrings, and chainring bolts. If you take a 2x chainset, and swap the two chainrings for one, you create extra clearance, but you don’t need new cranks.

Its a 2x Force crankset and I’m not going 1x. The crankset includes chainring bolts. So while I agree that ‘convert 2x to 1x’ would create more clearance, I’m not going 1x. And like I said, 2x Red has no bolts and therefore it has more clearance versus 2x Force/Rival. And I’m not going Wide Force 2x. Stalemate. Time for a new bike.

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Anthony,

IMHO you’re essentially chasing the impossible on that bike.

You have an enormous head tube. Your drop position is Askreen’s hood position. In order to get your preferred position, you absolutely need more saddle to bar drop. As stated earlier, many people tolerate drop better than longer reach. Longer reach often causes neck or shoulder pain and fatigue.

‘Most’ taller riders, with aero positions have dramatic saddle to bar drops. Your frame also has a slack seat tube and the frame is short in reach. So you are way behind the bottom bracket. This means your hip angle is far too aggressive, if you try to get your back flat.

Essentially. You’re never going to get ‘aero’ comfortably, on that bike.

If you aren’t prepared to change frames, I don’t see how you can possibly contort yourself into your desired position, without possible pain.

As others have stated. What you want is a very small headtube on a frame with as much reach in the frame as possible. You then run your seat as forward on the rails as possible. This opens the hip angle and allows you to rotate forward. The short head tube gives you a very large length of extended seat post, hence the dramatic saddle to bar drop.

Taller riders often need this drop to get a low back angle, generally. Obviously, this all changes if someone has unusually long arms, legs, torso etc.

Long story short. New frame time, or just except your comfortable pain free position. Which in itself, may be slow, but it’s logical for that frame design.

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Appreciate your input, I’m not really trying to make this frame work any better than it is/isn’t. It’s just what it is at this point. Rather comfortable, but not super speedy.

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This is a common misconception / myth that really needs to die….there are multiple ways to achieve a flat, aero position. Increasing saddle to bar drop can be an answer, but it is often not the only one and can actually be worse.

As an extreme example, look at some of the setups from the top TT riders….huge pedestal heights for their aerobars. They could clearly go much lower, but that doesn’t necessarily make them a) more aero b) efficient, and c) comfortable.

Anthony’s problem isn’t too much stack, it is lack of reach. His frame is too small for him. Reducing his stack will only make his problems worse (as evidenced by the fact that a -17* stem was not comfortable for him).

@anthonylane just for grins and giggles, I’d suggest flipping your -17* stem upside down and seeing how that feels. It will give you more reach, but w/o reducing your stack, making it more comfortable. It will look like schitt, but will serve as a good reference point.

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