Becoming more aero, and faster

Before spending another dollar, Euro, two-pence, whatever on kit, it might well be worth working with a good fitter using a highly adjustable fitting bike tool. There are different tools available but something like the Retul MUVE or GURU Fit System for folks wanting to google search.

You could have the fitter put you in different positions, check your range of motion limiters and determine what position(s) will be rideable or not. It’s no good wanting to be aero and spending money achieving a position only to find out you can’t ride that position. Once you know the position numbers you can then find the right frame and contact point kit (Frame, bars, stem, seat, post, pedals, crank length) to get you into position.

Further, don’t go from one extreme to the other. Tall folks and older folks often have joint issues, ROM and flexibility issues. If you go from upright to slammed all in one move it is asking for physical injury.

If possible, work with someone who doesn’t have a stake in selling you a new bike and spell out your project in advanced as it might take multiple sessions.

Personal anecdote, there was a time when I was seriously chasing aero for TT’s. not because I’m good at TT’s, but was dedicated to doing the best I could. Went to A2 Wind Tunnel and worked with Mike G. Mike is a fantastic fitter and really knows Aero and fit. We sorted out a couple different positions. One was extremely fast, but exceeded my ROM. Another was more relaxed but still very aero. I ended up not being able to use the extreme position for full season use, but have it in my hip pocket should I ever want the most aero possible. I went a notch back in position, still very good, and can ride that all day long no problem.

My take is one can spend a lot of time, money and frustration stumbling through the wilderness getting sorted on fits and aero. Or, one can access the right tools and expertise and get to it more quickly and confidently. Caveat is that chasing this type of stuff can lead to some expense upfront because accessing the right tools and someone’s expertise isn’t free. That’s one of those personal choice things but I’ve found getting to the best choice faster can also be the most economical in the long run.

$0.02 worth!! Fun thread.

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Thanks for your input…Ok, but I won’t leave my garage. Cannot let anyone on another bike see me riding a +17º stem. I kid.

There are big contingent of Erik’s bike shops in the Twin Cities and some of them have RETUL studios. I always wonder though how your mileage may vary with these shops. They definitely have a sales bias, and I’ve never had good luck with “fitting” in my two bike purchases. “You’re tall as f*ck, let’s put you on the largest frame we have for that bike” sort of fit. And out the door you go to make it work.

That said, this gentleman (https://www.bicyclefitguru.com/) is local and I may give him a buzz when the time is right for a new frame.

Just for shits I sat on a 61 Aethos with a 110mm stem (why is that the stock stem?) and it felt no “longer” than my current bike. Makes sense…

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yeah, that is why you need to find a guy whose apparatus has a wide range of fit options and find a position first and then see how that fit translates to frame options. If they start with a predetermined data set of frames, you can just find your self in the same situation. Let the fit determine the frame, not vice versa.

The link you have above seems (on surface) to be the type of bike fitter you need…but I don’t really know anything about him…but his philosophy seems spot-on.

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You may be better off trying a longer +/- 6* stem first…and trying that upside down before going to the 17*.

This is like an opinion off…

I literally just had a very experienced fitter tell me this, as have others. In fact all the tall flexible riders I ride with have considerable saddle to bar drop. Obviously, more so than shorter riders.

I guess it all comes down to the individual.

From my own experience, I also tolerate more drop, than greater and greater reach.

I’m not offering anything valuable here, as it seems everybody has a differing opinion. The one theme is obvious. The bike is simply not conducive to a comfortable aero position.

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The bit I’m getting from a few opinions on this thread is that it’s the bike, regardless of whatever adjustments you want to make.

So, my short term suggestion is to train as hard as you can with the current set up, and make sure you are staying supple, and then longer term, when you get a more aero bike/position you will be so much faster. A bit like deliberately training with slow tyres and saving your best tyres for races.

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https://www.strava.com/activities/5744609682

aero is king :wink:

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Well, sure… And if we all lived somewhere that pancake flat none of us would ever worry about the the kg part of watt/kg either. :slight_smile: No need for carbon fiber or titanium bike parts either! Hmm, maybe you’re onto something.

Iam 66kg so i like to change with you! Iam a lot better in the mountains than my pancake country, but i dont had influence were my cradle was standing :wink:

Envious. Solid ride with a friend today, pancake flat, no wind. Apparently no aero. 18.4 mph seems a little fishy. FWIW, Strava’s weighted average power isn’t the same as TR’s or TP’s. TR had me at 262NP. I’m not saying I’m super aero, but I’m also not a wind sail. Sheesh.

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Help me understand fit compared to these two frames. I’m looking at a 61cm 2020 Trek Boone. It’s got a shorter head tube and lower stack, but the reach is nearly the same and the ETT is actually shorter (60.5 vs 58.8 for the Boone). However, they look really close overall.

Here’s my current frame vs a 2020 Giant TCX, which looks like it would be more aggressive than the Boone (and my current frame).


In terms of finding a more aero fit, am I looking for MORE reach and LESS stack, independent of what the ETT is?

Definitely more reach…maybe on less stack. As noted above, for many tall riders, less stack is a negative as they cannot get long and low that way.

ETT isn’t much of a metric any more…reach is a better measurement as it is independent of frame angles. ETT is just a representation of what a horizontal top tube length would be…without factoring in angles, it doesn’t really tell you how one frame compares to another. You could have a bike with a longer ETT but the reach is actually shorter once you factor angles into the equation.

Re: going with a higher stack to get lower, go look at the pictures @Dr_Alex_Harrison just posted of his wife in the Time Trialing thread. She has a positive angle stem, but is very stretched out, netting her a lower upper body position.

Did you ever get a chance to try a longer 6* stem in a postive angle to see if that helped?

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Noted on ETT, which is a good point, because it shows that my 60.5cm frame fits nearly the same as my cross bike which is 58.8. But my cross bike has slightly more reach. Negligible at +3mm. But still.

I’m just shopping for frames trying to see what I think would fit “longer” and get me lower. Eventually a bike fit will happen.

Not yet, I’m giving this -17º 130mm jobber a solid trial period before re-adjusting. I have it noted though.

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here is one for you, from Wed night worlds this week a two man break at 28mph @ 293W in a light 6mph back/cross wind.

totally flat route:

image

with 6mph wind out of SW - blowing from lower left corner to upper right corner.

The two man break was our 22 year old LBS manager on a Madone, he is 6’ 0" and maybe 145 or 150lbs, alternating pulls with another guy that is same height and probably 175lbs (private Strava data).

On Monday I had a 3mph wind (same direction) and averaged 19.9mph @ 196W but I’ll underscore average as I was doing intervals.

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I’m now a connoisseur of long stems for positive angle use.

Higher elbow position allows much better continuity between hands, head/helmet, shoulders, etc.

Best way to accomplish that: long frame and “upside down” long stems. Pictured are a 150mm +6, 150mm +17, and a 160mm +12mm. She has a 140mm +6 on her bike now and I could have used these longer ones had I had more foresight.

Pic of Michelle on her bike.

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PS. this is handy in case it hasn’t made the rounds yet.

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Holy crap those are some LOOOONNNNGGGGG stems!!!

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Yep, hoods for everything but bunch sprint.

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Reminds me of the Superman position, higher, narrower hands though. It looks great!

Joe

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Yes, but tradeoffs there:

  1. $
  2. Maybe decreased stiffness
  3. Maybe increased weight
  4. Massive time-cost of me tearing apart and building a bike, or more $.

I think there are aerodynamic benefits of a positive angled stem over a flat stem with spacers beneath it. Same frontal area, by the naked eye but less perpendicular angle of attack of wind on the undersurface of positive angle stem than on spacers to create that height.

I guess that’s only a scenario that will appear when seeking a very reached position with high elbow position as is necessary for a UCI-legal high-hands position.

I’m hopeful that she may be given a faster bike for next year’s TT. Dropping $15k on a bike right now just isn’t in the cards.

She did just go pro in triathlon so some corporate partnership may be more plausible. Fingers crossed there.

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