I’m about 5 weeks into TrainerRoad and really loving it, but had a question on Sweetspot intensity. I’ve been running 2x 90min SS sessions per week in this plan and quickly brought my PL up to the 8 range. Those workouts felt about like what I’d expect for SS, but now I’ve climbed into the 9’s and just stacked Cotorra and Malkhet Hills this week. These were doable, but the ~75mins at 93-94% FTP were pretty taxing (they both came out to 92% and 91% IF respectively). Add on O/Us on the weekend and feels like fatigue is going to come on quick this phase. Also realize this is a bit self-inflicted since I messed with Alternatives but the <7 PL SS felt way too easy.
Wondering if it might make sense going forward to leave one SS workout PL 9 but maybe tone the other one down to high 7 / low 8 (closer to 60min TIZ for that workout)? Or any other thoughts on how to approach?
I like the 90% intervals in the “More SweetSpot” team workout list. 94% is basically threshold and doing threshold for 75 minutes regularly seems like a recipe for fatigue.
This is the sort of danger that reaching for those high-level workouts can pose with your plan. AT now assumes that those are the right workouts for you, and even though you can do them it doesn’t mean you always should as you’ve found out.
In this case, I think it might be best to simply rely on Workout Alternates to pick the SS workout that best fits how you feel on the day. If your upcoming level 8.6 workout seems like a bit much, I’d use Alternates to find one that better suits your needs. AT will catch on before long and start recommending workouts based on your recent history.
If you want to continue to knock out one hard SS workout a week and you feel that’s sustainable, by all means, go ahead, but just know that as of now, AT isn’t going to separate the two SS workouts into different difficulties. It knows you can knock out those higher-level workouts and thinks that’s the right move going forward.
It would be cool to build a feature like that though, similar to how some endurance rides are classified as recovery while others are simply classified as endurance and they both have different goals.
Let me know if you have any other questions about any of this!
~90% is a pretty solid target. I do less than that if I’m carrying fatigue, but will do a little more than 90% if I’m feeling really good. If I was able to do 94% for 2x90’ regularly, I would probably test my FTP to make sure that it wasn’t set too low. 180’ at 94% would be REALLY tough.
It doesn’t really matter what his FTP is because he’s saying these workouts are cooking him. I doubt his AIFTP is going to tell him it’s gone down. More likely it will tell him he’s gone up, which may make the issue worse. I think the issue is these workouts are just too hard for regular training and are counterproductive.
It will, but how much depends on how much his FTP goes up. It’s likely not going to go from a 9.0 to a 2.0 and the question isn’t really about his FTP or his progression levels. It’s more about the appropriate level for Sweet Spot. I still say 94% might as well be threshold. And TR is still going to serve up 94% Sweet Spot workouts even at the lower progression levels, and at a higher FTP it’s even more likely to be a threshold workout since that would presumably be higher than what he’s doing now even if it’s shorter intervals.
There is not much you can do beside following @eddiegrinwald recommendation to dial down one workout depending how you feel or dropping to master’s plan variant. Or alternatively move to Polarized plan entirely.
I am same type of rider – whatever current FTP is, I can still push very high volume of Sweetspot but it is metabolically very taxing and takes serious mental effort in long term, especially indoors. After PL 10+, AT even can’t help you anymore. Additionally, once you have reached high fitness, lot of Sweetspot doesn’t increase your FTP much i.e. after AI FTP detection, you’ll get some increase, PL drops little bit, you push it to PL 10 in one or two workouts and then you are in same situation again
Basically, it means it is time to push the ceiling but auto-generated plan does not adapt for this purpose. One possible solution is to drop plan temporarily, do some focused VO2max block and then return to AT guided plan.
The counterargument is that maybe actually the mistake is not the workout itself but the concept that this is somehow a low intensity workout just because it’s below 97% ftp. There is nothing magic about 90% of FTP vs 94% of FTP or even 97%. It’s all just high glycogen output sustained power.
Yeah, if this is their first shot at structured training then I would definitely wait longer before really pushing up the intensity on every workout. That approach is possible when you’re starting out and fresh but after a while it will just drown you in fatigue and you’re probably not getting any faster for all the extra work you’re doing.
If you’re like 2 training cycles in and the whole thing still feels too easy, then maybe start to slowly increase either volume or intensity. But doing it conservatively.
The thing is… 90 min @ 94% FTP is not far off of a race effort. Doing this regularly, let alone twice a week, is going to break you down and you are going to dig deep into the stress reservoir. That is fine for a block of training but you are going to need some decent recovery to ensure you get the adaptions from this kind of training.
Another thing to consider is that you don’t always need to do workouts that go longer or faster every workout. Just as we have “b” and “c” races we have workouts that are not always meant for progression. Sometimes that workout with a decreased intensity or shorter interval is what we need. As @russell.r.sage mentioned, the issue isn’t FTP (that likely has gone up if you can do this) but that the workouts are too hard on a regular (2x per week) basis.
But back to the original question… I think the OP had the right instinct in backing off the secondary workout!
Although it can feel good to test your capabilities, as you’ve noticed the rate of progression prescribed by your Training Plan strikes an intentional balance between stress and rest.
I like @eddiegrinwald’s suggestion to get your Training Plan back onto a more sustainable rate of progression. This article may be useful: How to Use Workout Alternates . Let us know if you have any questions!
There is another option (don’t know why support didn’t mention it): You could edit those SS workouts > 8 PL you performed and uncheck the progression levels checkbox. So that these won’t be considered as a base for the next progression.
Sure, this is possibility but it does not address the fundamental issue – athlete has reached to limit progressing certain type of workouts within current ceiling (VO2max). From now on, there are 2 options left, as I see it:
keep extending time to exhaustion at this intensity. This might be good approach, depending on your specificity and goal event duration. If not, do you want to?
adjust training regimen, to push up current ceiling i.e. create room for Sweetspot progression, this time at higher intensity.
Oh I didn’t know those existed! I will check out. 90% seems infinitely more sustainable and I would imagine the adaptations aren’t much different at those intensities.
Extremely helpful - thanks Eddie! I did notice that AT knocked my PL down a bit after my survey so I will give the mid 8’s a go. Otherwise, I’ll probably use alternatives for 1 of the 2 prescribed sessions to keep fatigue in check.
Yeah I wrote that really poorly. It is 2 sessions per week of 90 mins… of which it is only like 70-80 mins in zone. It isn’t ridiculously crazy, but feels like the top of what I can do right now.
I also have a stressful job and two young kids so I rarely get more than 6 hours of sleep. This also impacts my form a lot as I get into later week workouts.
My AIFTP was actually last week and it tried to raise my FTP 15Ws. I bumped it down to only a 5W increase after doing a 20min test. I am pretty new to riding, but I can tell that I have a very flat power curve so I think it looks at these SS intervals and thinks I’m a lot stronger than I am.
This is 100% part of the case. I just started riding in June and got relatively fit through the summer. Started structured training and SS felt way too easy for me below like a PL of 6. I think I adjusted up with alternatives way too quickly.
I am new to riding (started in May), but has become very clear to me that my power curve is very flat. Top end power is bad but can hammer out a lot of Sweetspot (I just did 105 minutes at 91% of FTP in a Zwift race last weekend). I tried a 20min FTP test recently and basically had minimal improvement despite rocking these Sweetspot intervals. It is pretty clear to me I’m just weak trying to ride above FTP.
