Zwift raises $450 Million; Specialized joins KKR in the investment round

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The issue with really trying to use Zwift as a competitive racing platform is rampant cheating and how easy it is to cheat the system. With the way it is currently setup, from a security perspective, there is no way around this either. Intercepting and altering (or just completing forging) USB data is simple to do from a technical perspective. The only way to improve the integrity of the data would be to use some sort of digital signing or encryption of the data from the trainers. This would require substantial firmware changes on the trainer side which Zwift doesn’t control. Perhaps that’s something they could do with dedicated hardware, but then they’d have to force everyone to switch hardware, which seems to go against the whole idea of Zwift.

I really don’t see how they can get past this.

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I get this for serious pro type racing but whenever I race I honestly don’t give a seconds thought if others are cheating. Just have to accept that unless power devices are equal then there’s going to be some that gain an advantage, the thing is the races are usually really close so the perception you get is that things are ok.

If someone is off the front doing 600W for 10 minutes then I’d just be like :man_shrugging::man_shrugging: and contest the actual race.

Probably going off topic here, sorry.

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128

Yah I I understand what you are saying. For the casual racer it’s not really an issue. You’re just testing yourself against others.

But, if they want to become a serious platform for racing, there needs to be a way to have better confidence in the data. It’s not just the 600w outliers that’s the issue. Let’s say someone just wants to add 10 or 20% to their actual wattage output. There is currently no way to tell if that is happening. Zwift Power included.

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Yeah, that’s a fair point.

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I’m sure people are going to hate me for saying this but if Zwift bought out TR and put Chad’s plans into Zwift training - heck, make Chad be a in charge of most of the training, that would be ideal.

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This. And, as someone who came to TR from zero experience with this kind of training, I think it will always be this way.

The programs are hard, the workouts are hard. And the first thing you’re supposed to do is an FTP test! I can’t think of a better way to scare people away from a product haha.

Seriously, though, Zwift and TR have always been very different, and now this difference will be reflected in their respective sizes.

Here’s hoping TR keeps going for a long time (and maybe the people that got hooked on cycling with Zwift may decide they want something more goal-oriented, a rising tide lifts all boats etc.)

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or Zune

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If I could have Chad’s plans/workouts on Zwift, and a new world which is a virtual pain cave, then I’d have one less subscription. The Zwift plans have improved a lot, so far as when you’re doing one of their plans, it offers you the next workouts with some time to do them, and all that, but I prefer Chad’s science.

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Not necessarily.
Garmin is the owner of Ant. They push the standards and other companies may or may not implement certain things.

Similarly, Zwift could come up with some standard of encryption to send the data to them. If you do the standard then you can compete in races. If you dont then maybe let people compete with the people who dont have a trainer with the standard.

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ANT is irrelevant here. Regardless of how data is transmitted via ANT (or BLE) it still is received at the other end by some sort of antenna and then transmitted to computers via USB unless someone is using a tablet/phone which is probably not very likely for competitive racers.

The USB standard allows for for easy MiTM (man-in-the-middle) attacks where all of the data is easily manipulated real time.

The only way around this is encryption from power data source through to Zwift. Yes, Zwift could implement a method of encryption. I stated this in my post. That’s where the “substantial firmware changes” come into play. This seems unlikely to me. But, sure it’s possible.

First, Zwift has to show any interest in stopping cheaters. Right now I don’t see any indication of that.

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If Zwift want to be taken seriously in the realm of e-sport, they will need to do something eventually.

They will need to convince the trainers to allow some kind of encryption when sending the data, something a man in the middle cant intercept, or even if they do, they have no way to (or at least not easily) to recreate. I think is possible and Zwift might get enough motivation to legitimize the sport, if they online racing scene stays hot after things calms down again.

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From a training platform perspective (not entertainment, social, …)

  • TR is one-to-many (except group workouts)
  • Zwift is one-to-one

Luckily for TR, nobody has taken advantage of this. yet.
TR has enough data to have a great barrier to entry and to be a significant force in the market. (Garmin, Wahoo, Strava, Zift, Peloton are already in this club too. But they don’t have a Chad. :slight_smile:

“In the fight between the bear and the alligator…”
On what terrain does TR want this fight to occur?

(imho One-to-one will be where the battle gets played out. It’s much more computationally intensive, prone to latency issues, and requires different architecture and coding skills. Group workouts is a big step in the right direction.)

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If Zwift wants to be taken seriously in e-sport, they need to figure out a way to make Zwift racing something that people want to watch. Right now, watching Zwift racing is nearly impossible and when it is broadcast/live steamed it’s almost un-watchable.

It doesn’t make sense to invest a bunch of money in e-racing unless they can find a way to generate a return that’s inline with what the investors are expecting.

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Come the F on…

How much would it cost zwift to get a coach that knows what they are doing, sit them in front of a monitor with trainerroads plans on display and have them create something similar?

Ffs, what are we actually talking about here? £1k? £10k? How many local level coaches are out there who are already well versed in the indoor training market, who are scratching to make a living coaching or even working two jobs would jump at the chance to sit down for a week or two and come up with (legally) something directly comparative to coach Chad’s plans and workouts?

Sorry for the aggressive vibe but this really just blows mind that Zwift continues to not bother their arse doing this.

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I’ve swapped out a handful of TR workouts. Not sure I rate the interface of the Zwift app better, but really missed “extend cooldown”* and then the +/- 10% limit on intensity. That’d put me off even bothering to send a TR workout to zwift, even if I could to be honest.

*I know I could just carry on riding on zwift, but then I’ve lost that element of control TR gives, and also wasted the cool down period in the workout.

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I said on the Peloton thread - the start up costs of being a TrainerRoad user are way lower than zwift. Potentially just the sub, with a dumb turbo that is supported for virtual power and if you have speed and cadence sensors.

I never used zwift, as I had nothing capable of running it. I then got a new work phone that was, supposedly, capable. I casted it to a TV fine, until I did a big event, where it crashed. The following stage they split the start times - still was unusable via chrome cast, and did that on my phone! As I figured I’d be swapping out door rides for a number of months due to lockdown, I ended up getting AppleTV. This showed up flaws in the old “netflix” TV I used for TrainerRoad. Next pay day was a new TV… I already had a smart turbo, if I didn’t, I’d most likely be looking to upgrade to that to get the full zwift experience.

Pre-lockdown, I was doing my TR workouts before work, in the car park, on my hybrid rollers with a power meter. Previously, I’ve done them on gym Wattbikes. Zwift is not a low tech solution.

Who knows whether TR would get an offer, and whether they’d sell out. I wouldn’t be taking it personally if they did, but I’m really not sure Zwift see the guys as a threat. I’d say they were when both were start ups, but TR has found it’s niche.

Looking at the customer survey they sent out, I’d suggest Zwift could well kill the golden goose, with multiple payment plans for different levels of access. However, as an end user, I see their biggest problem is trying to do too much, over promising and under delivering. For all the feature requests that we are disappointed on timescales, TR never gives false hope of delivering. “great idea, not right now” is the most frequent idea. Zwift is all “we’re working on x, y, z” but still no updated UI (I’m only using since March, and I think this has been promised twice!), no clubs, still relying on external sites for race results, etc. etc.

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Read most of the thread and am a TR yearly sub, Zwift monthly and also share a Fulgaz yearly sub with my sister in law. Fwiw I used to own a Peloton bike and used it for a year. Only sold it because I was getting back into triathlon but really liked it.

Zwift is good enough at most things but a master of none. Route badges are motivating and only 4 left for me. Community, group rides are a lot of fun but there plans are a disaster. It is not so much the actual workouts but the flexibility of using them. Running is ok but at least it is there if you don’t want to watch the tv. Zwift wants to be Peloton but never see it happening.

Peloton is really well done. Say what you want about the bike and adjustability or lack of but it is an immersive experience. Besides the bike cost if you go that route there is really no barrier to entry which is why it has so many people. I did the 90 day trial again this year (ios app only) just for meditation and treadmill workouts. Also the diverse nature of what is on there live or not is what makes it easy for most people.

TR is a master of training, plans and a bunch of others. The calendar, forum, outdoor workouts, podcast are all well done along with keeping it simple. The group workout functionality is cool and a step to get more online involvement and keep motivated. I am rooting for TR as been here for a few years now and looking forward to what is coming. I sure wish there were other “community” based challenges or even CEO led group workouts even if only once a week. Maybe even race simulations that the TR team uploads a file to the server and you can ride it weekly.

Fulgaz is for me the best for outdoor simulation and the videos are so well done. Have not done the workout portion but I am sure it is pretty good but not like TR.

Overall we do really have it good now and nice to have the option to choose one or multiple. Or just go outside and ride and enjoy the scenery.

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FYI, Nate has been posting a bunch of group workout invites the last bit. About 3 workouts per week for several weeks at least. It’s all in the Group Workout thread (link to follow).

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Thanks and good to hear. Just a pain as that thread as most gets long. Would be nice if I could “friend” someone and see their schedule and if it is a group workout or not. Then it would be much easier to join. Kind of like Zwift when you favorite someone.

Edit: I wish TR also provided a way to use the plans for running with a stryd footpod/garmin hrm power meter. I understand there are not “plans” created but would be easy enough to create your own. @Nate_Pearson

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One of the investors was Zone 5 (Specialized) who also invested in Todays Plan. Todays Plan offer training plans and Zwift already use the Todays Plan platform for the Academy so there could be further links/tighter integration in the future.

https://zone5ventures.com/#portfolio