Don’t really understand what you mean?
“no intensity - harm z2”
Should this type of high z2 ride then count for as “intensity” day?
To be more precise, I see hard to slot in a ride at or close to 75% FTP (or thereabouts) for long durations while also pushing substantial TiZ at tempo/threshold during the week.
2 Likes
If I remember correctly, in other videos ISM was saying that if one goes above z2 or does intervals it then takes the system 20 minutes at least to return to benefit from endurance ride.
Hence his idea of doing intervals at the end of a ride.
3 Likes
I honestly don’t understand what people are confused about.
He’s talking about training clearly-ish defined energy systems. What is the confusion?
4 Likes
I think @Crosshair was pretty close to nailing it with their post earlier.
I have been Inscyd tested (twice) and worked 1:1 with Steve Neal for a good period of time, I own a lactate meter and I’ve tested myself several times. I did a TON of work right below the spot Steve called the “Lactate Balance Point” or LBP. The LBP, in Steve’s parlance, is this training zone where you can accumulate a lot of work with out accumulating (relatively speaking) a lot of fatigue. Sounds a lot like what ISM calls “the top of Zone 2”
If figuring this out was REALLY important to me, I would get and INSCYD test or buy a lactate meter. If I couldn’t/wouldn’t do those things and I was trying to make this really simple I would do the following:
- Find a 5w range somewhere around 80% of your FTP
- After warming up, ride 2x30 in this range. Do not let your HR go above 83% of max. If it does, keep dropping power until your HR is below 83% of max, but complete the intervals
— if you completed the intervals with your HR in check, do an endurance ride the next day. The day after that, do 2x30 again at the same wattage. If you’re not totally burnt, and can complete the workout with RPE and HR in check … I would say this is a pretty close approximation to the top of your ISM prescribed Z2.
— if you didn’t complete the intervals, knock 5-8 watts off your range and try again for 2x30.
— once you complete 2x30 3 times in a week (I.e. Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday) kick it up to 1x60 3x a week and monitor your HR … don’t cross 83% of max.
— then go to 2x45, 1x90, 2x60, 2x75 and then 2x90 … if you do it wrong, you’ll pop well before you get to these durations. If you do it right, you’ll be a Diesel engine.
Always err on the side of 5w too low vs. 5w too high. When your HR starts dropping at the given power output, reassess your FTP or just continue until you reach 2x90, then reassess. Either way, you’ll be killing it and getting stronger and faster, or stronger and completely ready to get faster.
I’m not a coach or a physiologist. Take my advice with that in mind.
Good luck🤘
19 Likes
How about the fact his own research shows the difference between fatmax and LT1 can be 50w. Which intensity are you supposed to ride?
Don’t worry about fatmax. It’s a distraction.
1 Like
In the new video he literally says z2 corresponds to fatmax AND an increase in lactate.
His own research shows these 2 points do not necessarily correspond by potentially quite a significant amount.
And as for the advice to ride between fatmax and LT1, most people are not going to know what their fatmax is unless they have access to indirect calorimetry.
He also says to ride “at the top end”. The top end of what?
1 Like
Around 4:40 in.
And how does riding between fatmax and LT1 correspond with high revs?
I’m not saying he doesn’t know what he talking about, but people are cherry picking what they want to hear out of it
I think you’re looking too much into this. He’s saying to ride at “towards the top of zone 2” period.
What exactly this means wrt fat max etc… is whatever it happens to be afaik
5 Likes
Yeah and is z2 fatmax or LT1? Because that could be a 50w difference.
This should be the title of this entire thread 
10 Likes
Not what he says in the Attia video. He says ride between LT1 and fatmax
For ISM, Zone 2 starts at Fatmax and ends at the around the Fat/CHO crossover point…which is around LT1 (in my interpretation of his charts). Zone 3 goes from the Fat/CHO crossover point to RER=1.0 (or threshold).
Fatmax is just maximal fat oxidation. Carbs are still being burned for everyone, even when they are at fatmax. For elites, they are consuming a ton of carbs at fatmax.
2 Likes
Yes.
1:00:09
"the moderately active individual where again we have a disparity right so based on
these data the moderately fit individual hits a lactate of two millimole at 175
watts but hits a max fat oxidation at gosh 125 watts so it’s a 50 watt difference so now the question for you is when that person comes to you and says i want to improve my metabolic function, i want to improve my mitochondrial performance i want to improve my fuel
partitioning my flex about all the things we talk about are you going to train them
as a zone 2 of 125 watts or as a zone 2 of 175 watts as represented by these
deltas?"
“that’s a very good question and normally i would try to do something in the middle normally”
Peter was pressing him on where he should tell his patients to ride as a wattage if I remember correctly.
Oh well if the interviewer asked him a question then obviously he didn’t mean it.
Honestly you are massively proving my point. The prescription has not always been consistent and numerous people on the thread and just selecting what they want to hear.
1 Like
Listen, I don’t have a horse in this race … but I think you’re confusing “prescription” with “description” — he describes a lot. I don’t think I’ve ever heard him prescribe a thing.
I could be wrong, I didn’t listen to the whole thing.
I wrote it out at length before …. Figuring out a decent approximation of LT1 is pretty easy. Give it a week or so. Good luck.
5 Likes
He’s already used a lactate meter. That’s how he got the 175 watts.
Out of curiosity … what are you asking? Or what are you advocating for?
I’m not sure I understand. Are you looking for an answer? Or trying to prove a point?
3 Likes
Thanks for posting, this is essentially what I do. Except the endurance rides are 2 hours so 100 minutes of focused endurance with 10 min warmup and cooldown.
And I started out knowing I can knock out a 5-6 hour ride on weekend with average HR below 142-ish bpm (81% HRmax, 88% LTHR my preferred metric), take a day off, and keep training.
So I already had a good idea of fatigue/HR profile from a lot of rides in 2016 and 2017 (I first bought a power meter in October 2016).
in pics from this week
-
Mon: 2 hours endurance+intervals, reduced power a bit as I was restarting the engine
-
Tuesday (3 days ago):
-
Wed: 2 hours endurance+intervals, absolutely crushed the intervals and was pushing endurance around .78 IF
-
Thursday / yesterday:
The top of target range for me is 79% FTP.
Yesterday was a good day despite poor sleep, I hit 200W for 73 minutes at 132bpm. That was really low HR for me, at that power, and the 2nd time in a month when HR was lower.
Last month’s 12/20/22 low HR outlier was a Tuesday, after 2 days off the bike and a 13.5 hour week. Maybe my HR was low because of being tired, I dunno. Or maybe teetering on the verge of a fitness bump.
and a month later, yesterday, was after a 6 hour block of Mon/Tue/Wed, so maybe my HR was low because of being tired, I dunno. Or maybe teetering on the verge of a fitness bump.
For context the volume over last 10 weeks:
and recovering from targeting that power/HR for endurance work.
Just wanted to support your post, and add some color to your comments. I adopted that basic ‘field testing’ methodology in early 2020 and its been working well for me. My challenge has been nailing the amount of off-the-bike carbs I eat, it actually seems to have more of an impact on those rides AND recovery than any other variable.
5 Likes