Sorry for another z2 question. I’m a long time TR user but these days I’m only really getting 2 TR workouts in a week and trying for lots of Z2 volume. I’m 195cm, 96kg and FTP is down to 300 (330 at best). When I’m doing outdoor rides, using the ‘go until conversation becomes stilted’ my HR sits around 144-155 but I suspect that is too high for the metabolic gains I’m looking for? With a max HR around 194, the 5 zone model has the aim more like 117 -137 but man that feels easy to talk etc.
To add to confusion, when outside, averaging power around 200-220 will have me hitting that 145-155 number (with variability due to road gradients and need to accelerate in traffic), vs indoor raining my HR won’t get up that high for the same power (130s).
Anything I can do to make sure I’m getting the benefit of those Z2 miles?
I follow a similar approach with 2 TR interval days per week and a bunch of Z2 (and often a saturday group ride). I personally don’t obsess about hitting specific numbers for my Z2. There is no magic point where the “metabolic” gains start and stop, it’s all on a continuum. My main concern with Z2 is doing it in a range I know I can recover from and not carry excess fatigue into my interval days. I can do that pretty well by feel. My FTP is a bit over 300w and NP for a Z2 ride outside might end up at 190 or might end up at 225+. With coasting/downhills and stoppage, that usually means I’m holding ~200-235 as a target. But again, it’s by feel. It’s a deliberate effort, like a brisk walk. And often it changes over the course of a ride when the legs start feeling better after an hour or so. When I get off the bike from a pure Z2 ride, I want to feel satisfaction like I’ve done something, but not fatigue where I want to lay around afterwards. Again, like after a brisk walk.
I won’t speculate on the HR stuff, I rarely wear a HR monitor for training and never wear one for Z2 outside (the data is all over the place for me with temp, caffeine, fatigue, etc., just could never make enough sense of it to be useful).
And for what it’s worth, I do make exceptions to my “easy” rules for z2. If I’m trying to create some overload at the end of a block or if I intentionally want fatigue going into an interval day, doing very long Z2 and/or upper end Z2 work is usually the lever I pull (rather than throwing in more intensity).
Remember that the talk test is the limit of zone 2. The goal is usually not to ride the line between zone 2/3.
And honestly, the gains come from the volume of muscle contractions not the intensity so you ride lower than the top of the zone so you can do it over and over and over all day long. The higher your volume the lower your endurance pace.
Personally, I can feel my breath rate shift around >130bpm. I call 120-125 my endurance pace. If I’m going to be doing a higher volume of endurance I’ll stick to 120bpm (and yes, it feels ridiculously slow).
It’s kind of funny how frequently someone posts about figuring out how to make their easy rides harder. We all know what an easy ride feels like, there’s just so many people convinced that easy is too easy.
I was pretty tired the next day. Wouldn’d be able to do a 4hr ride for sure.
But, I had a 3x20 FTP the day before - Thursday. Friday I did this endurance ride. Saturday I was cooked. Sunday I did a 2:45hr low intensity with a 12min pretty hard effort chasing a KOM heheheh - Got it by the way, and it was fine.
My endurance 3/4hr ride is starting now. I live in Canada, so you guess that riding outside from November to March isn’t really pleasant. I focus on Gym and a few short sessions to keep the fitness. My plan really kicks off about March, and I haven’t done any endurance ride. That was the first one.
How are you calculating your HR zones? Max HR really doesn’t matter. I’d recommend doing a LTHR test to get your Threshold HR and then calculating your zones based on that.
Your HR will likely vary from inside to outside as there are many different discrepancies between the two riding styles/environments, such as temperature/cooling, muscle recruitment, mental engagement, and potentially power as well if you’re not using the same power meter in both scenarios.
This might be a bit of a hot take for some, but I’d recommend going off HR when riding in Z2. Power is great for a lot of things, but when you’re looking to keep your metabolic state in a specific place, HR can at times be more accurate as it shows internal strain rather than just energy expenditure.
There are, of course, things that will make your HR less useful, such as if you’ve consumed caffeine, illness, excessive fatigue, etc., but for the majority of my training purposes, HR works well for Z2.
Is there research that shows the effect of stopping, even briefly, during say a 3 hour Z2 ride, vs constant pressure on the pedals? By any objective measure, the 2 ride files would look the same, but even a couple of 5 minute breaks or coasting downhill would see a noticeable difference in HR.
I can see where that’s a reasonable question if we’re talking about threshold intervals. I think we lose the plot when we start worrying about “how endurance-y was my endurance ride?”
Zone 2 is a lactate zone, that is if you want to capture the benefits from the ISM z2 model which a lot of professional teams use. It’s a lactate zone because accumulation of lactate signals for down regulation of mitochondrial function and the introduction of glycolytic energy which is no longer « adapting » the mitochondria as much as when lactate is kept flat.
Typically a range of 1.5 - 2.0 mmol which corresponds to a level wherein all produced lactate is fully recycled by mitichondria.
the best sessions are done out in the country where nobody will stop you from riding or on the trainer where you can get a perfectly controlled steady state.
It is fun to work on because you start to develop more attuned mind body connections as you wade through the difference between z2 lactate levels vs accumulating lactate levels, vs fatigue rising but lactate is flat, vs bonking, vs drifting lactate levels
You can try testing or start with many shorter sessions usually 0.68. - 0.77 IF however this depends on your ftp being accurate, the best way to know is to use lactate testing and learn what the RPE feels like.
This is exactly why people get confused over a very simple subject…very few people are going to do to lactate testing, figure out what 1.5 - 2.0 mmol means, etc. It means even less when you are actually out riding.
Zone 2 is a simple concept…easy riding. Use your FTP to assess the appropriate wattage range. Do your best to stay in that range. Don’t worry if you have to briefly go above that range to crest a hill and don’t worry if you coast for a bit while descending.
We tend to overly-complicate simple concepts in our constant need to quantify and measure everything. It is unnecessary.
My gut tells me this is the thing for @Jamie_Kelly is easy rides - so just see your 225W as a level you prefer to keep below and leave it at that.
But it does depend on their goal - eg if you need to hold a solid 0.7IF for 5 hrs on race day, then you will want to be a bit more specific with your Endurance workouts.
I blame ISM for all this confusion. He called his 2mmol zone “zone 2” when it’s usually otherwise known as tempo to everyone else in cycling.
He could have saved the internet from hours and hours of word salad podcasts and tens of thousands of “what is zone 2” posts had he just prescribed 2mmol intervals or tempo intervals for those without a lactate meter.
Don’t sweat this (pun intended) but see if you can work on more gradual accelerations at lower power, and capping your steep gradient efforts to say sweet spot.
If elderly folk can make it across a junction without pushing a thousand watts when the lights turn green, maybe we can too?
How hard is this really to implement ? 2/10 ? 3/10?
Humans have just as much of a tendency to oversimplify to protect their own ego or to reinforce existing biases. IE old dude who trained for 20 years using z2 in the 7 zone model and doesn’t like the idea that his last 20 years were not “optimal” because he was not following best practices that have since emerged.
I don’t find it hard or overly complex but your results may vary, probably better to let people know what the cutting edge looks like and let them decide for themselves, don’t really do much of a favor by babying people and suggesting that they cannot handle fairly simple concepts.
100% agree, he should have coined a new term, placing his ideas within the 7 zone model label of “z2” but then giving so much nuance that the concept grew legs and started standing alone makes things highly confusing.
z2 club rides to this day are totally different in the minds of many different people.
