I’ll respectfully leave the conversation here. Thanks for your perseverance in trying to explain it to me, but I don’t think I find the message as clear and consistent as others here.
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I triangulated my Z2 with coggan classic levels, talk test, and dfa alpha 1. It’s not hard.
Coggan would say that it doesn’t matter. He’d say that training at fatmax is bogus. He’d say that training at all intensities come with a continuously variable fatigue/reward ratio. There is no magic intensity.
Here’s a gem from Skiba posted the other day on Twitter:
Repeating for the people in the back: work all the intensities all the time.
The balance between the intensities is the art of coaching. Monotony kills.
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Thanks, man. I’m not sure I’m right, I just don’t think it’s that complicated. You/me/all of us can do a lot of really, really good training by trying to figure this out on a bike vs. a message board … and as I’ve said many times: I’m not a coach, so please take my input with a grain of salt.
For those who might find it more helpful … here’s a screenshot of a test I did with Steve after the lactate test. This was to confirm we were at the correct wattage … the goal was to ride at the watts we thought was my LBP, and keep my BPM below 83% for an hour … and if I could, the LBP was confirmed. In this case, 83% of my max HR was 158, and I was able to ride at 240W (or something like that) for about 1:02:00 until it went above that level — so the test was confirmed. Once I eclipsed 158, he told me to ratchet the power down without exceeding that BPM for as long as I wanted.
This would be really easy to approximate. Maybe even easier than what I suggested in my earlier post: Pick a wattage you think you can hold for one hour without exceeding it, if you exceed it … try again until you nail it. Once you’ve got it, shave 5w off and train at that number until your HR drops consistently, and then reassess.
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Why is fat utilization shooting high in the first 2 minutes? Any idea?
(I remember Kolie advising to ease into your long ride because fat metabolism takes some time to ramp up…)
Same.
I eventually trained at all the intensities (in my case in an unstructured way). But not before doing the exact protocol from Steve and then using those numbers to train LBP/tempo/whatever along with basic endurance for a fair bit. I did this almost exclusively in early 2020 (why not? the world was coming to an end, who wants to slam a bunch of intervals! 
)
I’m in the middle of a long tempo phase right now.
Two gears: basic endurance and the next one up. 
It took a lot of message boarding and bike time (coached and un-coached) for me, but I would have second guessed everyone and everything had I not just gone through a couple of cycles.
Stay safe, have fun!
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Funny thing is…the 83% HRmax cap was discussed for high tempo/sweet spot. Read from here:
And here:
Too much overthinking everywhere…searching for the magic interval or zone.
So I agree with this:
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100% same. Totally agree.
To be clear I don’t use a HR cap, except after a long time off the bike. I do a lot of 2 hour rides and have figured out an upper endurance power that is tipping point in terms of being able to recover and keep piling up 8-12 hours a week. That seems the as the fatigue/reward ratio comment you agreed with - I’m not sure of reward, I think it’s balancing training load against recovery from the fatigue that builds up over 3 loading weeks.
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The nearest thing to that is the alphaHRV Garmin IQ app.
Thanks for your input. I remember reading your post describing the training some time ago and was curious to try.
I’d be more interested now on periodisation though having understood the methodology.
Given that it might potentially push someone up to 80% FTP, do you shave off one tempo/threshold day and perform this “z2” ride instead? Especially if one has to do long intervals at these intensities.
Finally, assuming your z2 is say the classic 75%, would it be worthwhile at that point to go to 80-85% or would that “ruin” the workout?
Thanks
Out of interest where is the data from? How was it generated?
I have it setup as a “mid intensity ride”, so yes, for me it counts towards the intensity of the week, and not low intensity.
My LT1 is 81% of “FTP” (LT2), would describe the feeling as a steady pushing that doesn’t have me ever looking at the clock haha.
Weekly schedule:
Sunday: Rest
Monday: Rest
Tuesday: LT1 (like 3x20min, 1x45min, 2x30min etc)
Wednesday: Commute or Easy Z2 (around 180w-200w depending on legs)
Thursday: Easy Z2
Friday: Easy Z2
Saturday: Hard Intervals (Usually 4-5 x 8min at LT2)
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What sort of intensity is 200W for that rider?
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@empiricalcycling Any idea why is fat utilization shooting high in the first 2 minutes? (IIRC you’re advising to ease into your long ride because fat metabolism takes some time to ramp up…)
Hey @jz91 … I’m not sure I understand the question(s) you’re asking, but I’m also not sure I’m qualified to answer if I did.
Please remember, I’m not a coach or a physiologist. I was just trying to suggest a way folks might be able to find an LT1 surrogate … or at the very least a training wattage they could sustain without paying big costs.
My advice in general is “lower is better” … there is very little downside from going a bit too low. There is a ton of downside to going a bit too high.
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No problem. My bad, I’ll try to rephrase but I think dubadai gave a first answer.
I was curious to gather based on your experience how your coach was planning these z2 rides.
In particular, assuming one finds their LT1 is at 75-80% FTP, I was wondering what the weekly prescription in terms of TiZ and number of sessions would be.
If you were also doing tempo or threshold during the week, would your coach reduce the number of those higher intensity sessions considering that this type of z2 ride right at lt1 is different from the type of chilled endurance ride in between hard sessions?
I’ll try to answer as best I can…
- I would consider these rides to be “tempo” rides, so keep that in mind.
- During base phase, I would do these 3 times a week. Not all of them would be progressive …. So I wouldn’t do 1x90 for instance 3x a week.
- When moving into a Vo2 block I would do these types of workouts maybe on 1x or 2x per week
Here’s a sample week:
Mon: off
Tue: 3x30 @ LBP
Wed: 60-120 mins endurance … (low z2)
Thurs: 3x30 @ LBP
Fri: off
Sat: 2-3 hour ride w/4x10 @ LBP with 5 min recoveries
Sun: 3-4 hours … go ride your bike
Now, for me … that is going to be a 600+ TSS week. So if you’re only doing ~300 TSS now, think about that and adjust accordingly.
Also, take a rest week at least every 3-4 weeks.
If I workout too high on Tuesday and Thursday, I’ll be gassed by Saturday. If I workout correctly, or just below that tipping point … I’ll feel solid on Saturday. Also, fuel your rides.
Given the schedule above, always make Tuesday your hardest day.
I’m not a coach … so if you follow this and it messes you up, please remember that.
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The “queen mother” of all LBP/high Z2/sub-LT1 workouts🤘
Please don’t let my pedestrian** FTP dissuade you from giving this type of training a shot. I had an unfortunate flu/sinus infection double-whammy in December which cost me almost a whole month off the bike in December right after I took 3 weeks off after my season … cost me ~25 watts of FTP — I’m still building back up.
**My exceptionally fragile ego compelled me to write this
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Dude, I’d take your diminished FTP any day. At 56 now, I haven’t been able to get the FTP over 250 for the last few years. Thrilled with my results but more is always better.
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