Workout Levels V2 update? [Unstructured Rides]

I haven’t seen any update since the podcast. Of course we had the holidays, so my expectation is to start hearing something after the New Year.

I can’t remember…is WLV2 going to incorporate off bike cardio, like running and hiking?

Nate’s great but he is terrible about over promising and under delivering.

Here’s his typical pattern:

  • TR prototypes something and internally trials it.
  • Nate tries it himself and gets amped up
  • Nate spontaneously talks about it on the forums / podcast
  • Nate spitballs something like “if there’s no issues, this will come out in beta / production in 1-2 weeks”
  • Nothing comes out for a few months. Turns out there were edge cases not considered, bugs, UI work needed, etc. Maybe the whole thing needs to be redone.
  • Nate apologizes and admits it’s delayed. Depending on the situation, he may immediately start the hype cycle again.

I don’t think this is done on purpose, more it’s a character flaw. But how many times do you have to get bitten to stop petting the stray dog?


I think Nate knows what he’s doing when he talks about up coming product releases.

He’s a clever guy and knows what marketing approach works best for him/TR.


I cancelled my subscription because of the workouts v2 delay.


I listened to the first 200-ish episodes of the podcast. He’s the type to make major proclamations on the spot. Like that he’s doing X major cycling event this year, then later realize that wasn’t going to happen. Thus I believe that he is telling us what he thinks is the truth, at least in the moment.

If it weren’t for that, I would take my normal cynical view and think he’s doing it to keep people subscribed while TR improves their product.

Here’s one past example of WLV2 coming soon (pinky promise) from Sep 2022.

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  • Not from anything I’ve seen or heard.

If I recall correctly, Nate asked the community if they wanted updates, even if they were delayed or far off. The overwhelmingly response was yes.



Yeah but that could be kept to updates like feature X is at development stage 4 of 6, if it fails to meet criteria here it’s going to go back to stage 2. Talk of releases, even in beta, should be avoided until it’s actually released IMO.

Some people will interpret what Nate said as “we’re just picking our marketing name for it then it’s coming out in beta.” But he said there’s testing still happening.

For reference:


Here’s a shortened version if what Nate said [my editorial comments and edits are in square brackets]:

“What I want is [… goes on to describe red light / green light and that it requires WLV2]. [Sudden cut in the video]. I just got message on this, I’m going to see it after this [he doesn’t even know what the status is], and if that goes right, I’m going to have certain people on the forum start using it like tomorrow, like it’s already going to be live to more people, and if that goes well then we’re going to go to early access for people. And there’s so many cases we’re going to have to understand.

[Talks about RLGL benefits]. The design is done and marketing [… tries to remember the marketing name, describes RL/GL]. We’re trying to get it out ASAP but it’s going to be tough with the holidays and stuff [which is exactly why he should have kept quiet about timing IMO].

[More talk of how good RL/GL is …] And then, what the next step is [bad idea to talk about far future stuff right after promising imminent release of long awaited stuff], is we think this might be a way to help subscribe [pretty sure he meant prescribe] volume for like plan builder, like run it through a simulation with RLGL or fatigue monitor to see what is the right amount that you’re not going to get in these holes plus add these other options.

And I’ll guess I’ll spoil this too [keep on digging that hole], we’re adding in the ability on plan builder that you’re going to be able to change a ride to a group ride or solo […]. Once you do that ride, WLV2, we’re not going to show it you yet, there’s still some tweaking, but the back end system uses it to understand that ride, it’s more than just TSS, it’s using all the workout levels to understand that ride and adapt [RLGL and AT].”

That was very confusing and not concise. I’m still not sure whether he means WLV2 is coming soon or not, at least as anything user facing. In my eyes, Nate is the CEO who cried “stay subscribed, the product will be fixed any day now” too many times.

People really want their non-TR rides to count towards PL. And that’s been publicly stated to be in the works for more than 2 years. Get it done and get it out there. I’m tired of hearing excuses or about other things they are doing. If I didn’t have a big discount for staying subbed I would have been long gone.


Thanks for the transcription!

Does TR need to “be fixed” or are we just talking about new features here?


I guess it could work to hold on to current subscribers. Keep saying it’s coming soon so people don’t leave. But it’s not great for people on the fence or thinking about subscribing. “This new feature is coming soon, so you should subscribe.” No, I’ll just wait until it comes out. And two years later we’re still waiting.

I think he truly gets excited a can’t help himself from talking about it. But unfortunately that just gets people interested in the update and get impatient.

Let’s review the TR support article giving the overview on Progression Levels. It gives this definition:

Progression Levels are a dynamic, real-time representation of your fitness and ability to express your FTP across each training zone. They are measured on a scale from 1-10 to track your progress.

As you complete rides, Adaptive Training analyzes and adjusts these levels based on the relative difficulty of your workouts in each zone, as well as how successful you were in completing them.

Progression Levels can help you select workouts that are appropriate for your current capabilities. They also guide Adaptive Training to make more specific plan adjustments based on your individual performance.

Bolding is mine. They emphasize that it measures your actual fitness, capabilities and performance on rides, not just workouts. How’s it supposed to do that accurately if you don’t do the vast majority of your riding strictly on TR?

Yes, it’s discussed to death in the forums and probably mentioned in other support pages, but not being mentioned on the PL page tells you it was always envisioned to support outdoor rides. And clearly that’s what people want. What good is only knowing your TR fitness but not your actual fitness, other than bragging?

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To know what TR workout you should do. That has been the primarily goal of PLs.

TR has primarily been an indoor training tool. And you can import TR workouts to your head unit and do them outdoors.

We all eagerly waiting WLV2 but I do think you’re exaggerating when you say TR is broken without it.


I do tend to disagree with this, but totally understand where you’re coming from. TR is a training tool, and if you only consider TR workouts, it’s perfect. But from my perspective, I just find it rather annoying that it never captured the full picture of fitness.

I always did the low volume plans, to allow room for other unstructured rides that gave me joy. I nearly always nailed my workouts, and was very consistent. So my levels accurately reflected my fitness, so long as it was only including TR workouts.

Then I’d get an opportunity to do that 7 hour adventure ride, and it’s just kind of depressing to look at my “endurance” fitness level of 1.0, knowing it was fake news.

I think workout levels is a great idea. When adaptive training was announced, I immediately signed back up for TR again. But workout levels are just plain inaccurate as long as they’re only capturing TR workouts. You can’t debate that.

Years of waiting for classification of outdoor activity and I grew frustrated and eventually led me to stop my subscription.


I don’t understand the obsession/fixation with endurance PLs. Just go do Z2 for as long as you have time for. Even for tempo they are not important. They start to make a difference for workout at SS and above.

I did Unbound gravel with an endurance PL of something like 2 or 3. Doesn’t matter.

I’m looking forward to WL2 coming out but to say TR is broken without it is a a massive overstatement IMO.


You’re admitting that they’re incorrect for Z2, but then saying that saying they’re incorrect for Z2 is an overstatement.


I think the issue is that TR tried to sell the entire market and themselves that training for cycling is best on an indoor trainer and built their ecosystem around that. And there is a certain part of the market that will buy into that and/or just wants to ride their bike inside.

But come on, it is cycling. The fun is the speed, riding with friends, seeing the scenery. So I think they limited themselves. Their ecosystem just doesn’t work as intended for people who ride outside. Everyone knows this. The outdoor workouts seem like a half hack/bodge to overcome this, but yes, to have an all encompassing ecosystem that properly addresses the way many people want to train (outside rides, unstructured) ((don’t get me started on the assumption that what they call “unstructured” isn’t training)) they need to build a training ecosystem that takes these rides into your fitness profile or whatever they call it.