Is it weird that when I see ISM talk, I am waiting for him to say, “My name is Inigo San Millan. Prepare to die!”
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Yup…I made that same comment in the massive ISM thread. 
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If I recall the original context of Crosshair’s claim, it’s that if sweet spot and endurance workouts both end up with the same # of kJs, why add that intensity/fatigue when you can keep in all in Z2?
There may be some validity to that point IF sweet spot and endurance workouts have similar energy costs (which they typically don’t) AND the person is training at sufficient volume that the intensity of sweet spot in addition to their other work is not something they can recover from.
That was why I framed it in the context of a truly time-crunched athlete. If you’re doing base and have only 3 hours a week, do you get faster riding sweet spot for those 3 days or Z2? The Coggan chart seems to suggest that sweet spot is significantly more productive in that case.
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I get that but it is a big “IF” and generally isn’t happening in the ‘real’ world. Plus as was also mentioned there are other factors that come into play, muscular endurance etc. So there is a reason at certain times you, if you had the choice want to choose more intensity/fatigue.
Nothing new, IMO, it has been known for decades the importance of lower intensity (with large volume), it is the same in multiple sports, running, rowing, cycling, skiing to name a few. Intensity cant directly replace it but can ‘paper over the cracks’ an give a temporary brittle fitness gains but they are not robust.
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As many of you guys have mentioned here, Zone 2 work has been shown to be really effective for certain scenarios, particularly those populations that Dr. San Milan works closely with; people recovering from disease and elite athletes with sufficient time and energy available to sustain high-volume training.
While riding in Zone 2, 3x week will likely allow you to make progress, it may not be optimal for time-crunched athletes.
Dr. San Millán highlighted the importance of periodisation, which suggests he see’s a time and place to mix things up.
Here are some resources that elaborate on when and why it can be beneficial to tap into different training zones:
- Zone 2 Training for Cyclists: Where Endurance Training Fits in Your Training Plan
- What Is Sweet Spot Training: Everything You Need to Know
- Threshold Training for Cyclists: Intervals, Workouts, and Tips for Success
When we are building your Training Plan, we assume we are working within the time constraints indicated as you go through Plan Builder.
Adaptive Training will give you a well-balanced programme that taps into the various energy systems required for peak performance. If you have the bandwidth, it may be worth topping up with some Zone 2 work!
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Are there any plans to have Plan Builder let us state how many minutes per day and how much difficulty we want per day of the week? So many of us would love a plan with longer weekends and fewer “difficult” rides. Especially those of us who are Masters and Seniors.
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So like I was saying about 15% more work for the SS session (and that is for a lower IF SS workout, 0.76 isn’t particularly high.)
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It’s pretty much exactly 15% more: 1096 x 1.15 = 1260
Boarstone is at the top end of 2 hour endurance workouts. If you compare the kJs to the top end of 2 hour sweet spot workouts, again, they’re about 15% higher.
That said, I think it’s pretty clear that if you’re trying to maximize the amount of kJs you expend you should just smash as much Z2 as you possibly can. The problem is when you (in general, not you specifically) make the claim that a 2 hour SS and 2 hour endurance workout have the same kJ output so you’re just adding unnecessary fatigue by doing SS.
That claim is assuming that the fatigue from the SS workout is impactful and that there’s no difference in the quality of kJs between SS vs Z2. If you’re only doing 3-5 hours a week, there’s no way you’re going to bury yourself with SS work. So at that volume, it seems clear that you would want the more potent dose that SS provides. This approach obviously doesn’t scale.
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True, however SS / Threshold (I suggest for most using the TR model) doesn’t give the same adaptations. Even though the short term result might be similar.
They aren’t, they are just correcting misrepresentation. Maybe make a clear point? Because lots of people have misunderstood it.
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PS This thread is not about ISM. I have watched that podcast and think @SarahLaverty sums it up nicely to a large extent.
ISM on Peter Attia, it was a very poor podcast for endurance athletes, good for sedentary people or those with limited mobility I am not sure why it is so prominent in this thread. The thread was about the GCN youtube post “riding slower make makes you faster” which it does for 95%+ of people as they ride too fast too often, same in Running et al.
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Okay provide evident. The last you proved there was a 7% difference
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You keep mentioning this. I stand by my comment.
The GCN video is good, a more rounded interview. Again nothing NEW!
But they don’t. That doesn’t happen, as myself and others have given feedback.
You are be selective, that is not representative.
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I’m sure Pogacar is not doing 1.5 hours of zone 2 4 times a week… What I meant was Pogacar’s coach probably knows a thing or two about training and if he’s a big advocate of zone 2. I mean, everyone is. It’s barely even questioned. If you have 6 hours to train a week you could do a lot worse for a base than just 6 hours of zone 2. I’d take that over 3 * 10 minute SS intervals 3 times over or whatever various plans would have you do.
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“Trolling” You mean you don’t understand?
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So,
- they are not the same duration
- they are not the same load despite the duration difference
Simple maths, and selective bias
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An easy SS workout can be similar in calories to a hard Z2 workout. When you compare apples to apples, SS will give you more calories.
I posted some sample workouts before, but here are more showing the same trend. I’m with @Bbt67 on this one.
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As I have said before we are not talking per minute, it’s a misrepresentation, time is not free.
Plus that is factually incorrect. Fact. 88% - 92% sweetspot can not be more than 70-75% endurance, that is a mathematical fact as many have shown, even including warmup and warm down.
Back to the actual subject, there is not direct substitute for Z2 work and volume and you might need less volume than you think, it just needs to be over a prolonged time.
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Selective to avoid the truth
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