this kJ work thread plot twist - really don’t understand the idea of comparing different workouts on the basis of kJ. Am I missing some important point worthy of debate, or is it like getting bored with a series and time to find a new one? 
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Endurance – 90 minutes 70% (5 minutes warmup and warmdown) 842kJ
Sweet-pot – 90 minutes, 3x 20 minutes (same warmup / cooldown) 990kJ
About a 14% difference, fact, no trolling included, you keep saying that which suggests you know you are wrong.
Now I am not saying either is better, Z2 or SS in this instance, just stating facts.
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Topic title: Z2 riding can make you faster.
Thread: 250 post arguing if SS and Z2 workouts get you the same kjs burned…
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Not sure if you’ve followed what I have been saying.
But I totally agree, I think I am saying the same thing, it is a mute point. I am stepping out of the discussion on kJ because maths is maths, selective bias doesn’t come in to it.
Do the long Z2 work if you can.
If you can accept a lesser result, with short cuts, although quicker to build, quicker to fade.
Totally agree, its a Mute point.
Maybe thats the disconnect. My understanding is they have updated the plans somewhat, and with adaptive training, the workout difficulty is increased/decreased based on your current fitness (as described by your current workout progression level). So in the end, it is possible that the SS workouts TR is prescribing are different than the ones you had.
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I don’t think it is, I have just gone back to 2015 to 2019 and no sweet-spot sessions I have looked at come out as Z2 average, some Z3 yes, but not Z2. Again, I don’t think any of this distraction is useful or constructive to the thread.
On kJ I’m out, it shows a total misunderstanding of the subject.
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I’d say you would probably do a warm still.
I would not jump straight in at high zone 2.
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Guys. Please. Stick to the topic. You both just keep saying the same thing over and over. The real discussion has been completely lost.
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My thoughts on this.
Zone 2 using the zones ISM uses is 0.3-06 mmol above base line lactate from previous interviews with him ( I’ve listened to them all ). This for me and many other that I’ve tested is mid zone 3 using standard power zones (80-88% FTP).
It’s not slow.
I think a 90 mins session at straight ISM zone 2 wouldn’t be easy. I would need a normal 15 mins warm up and you would be concentrating.
A 90 mins zone 2 workout using coggan zones at 65-70% FTP would be easy.
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Thanks for sharing.
Just to add some variety to this convo which seems to have gone off the rails this is my poor man’s version of an ISM/Norwegian Base Protocol for the super time crunched (3-6hr/week). It’s pieced together from TR posts, ISM interviews and podcasts with coaches/athletes connected to the Norwegian triathletes/Olympic team
Goal: Increase power below LT1
- Pioneer-2 - measure lactate at the end of workout and adjust intensity accordingly for next Pioneer-2 workout so that lactate < LT1
- Spruce-2 - adjust intensity during workout to cap HR at 83% maxHR and do second interval at low cadence (50-60 rpm)
- Round Bald - If I have time on the weekend, I do this workout with the same constraints as Spruce-2 otherwise I just alternate between Pioneer-2 and Spruce-2 on weekdays with a day of rest if I feel like it which is not very often
- Every 4 weeks do a lactate test to establish LT1. I do 8x6min steps with 1 min rest to test lactate and 20w increments
Result: w/kg at LT1 went from 1.6 to 2.8 in 3 months. I know this isn’t super impressive for most but given my time constraints and the ease of the plan, I think it’s not too bad
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It depends on the intensity of the sitting. If you’re in base phase make sure you never sit above Z2 or you’ll ruin your training.
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those pics only confirm what I believed before the kJ detour, from a numbers point-of-view its about TSS and training load (CTL). Adding advanced aerobic (tempo/SS) to increase training load versus doing zone2 alone. Ignoring all other considerations and just focusing on the numbers in those screenshots.
p.s. and back in the day I had a lot of TR SS workouts like Monitor, Galena, and Eclipse with an IF in the mid 0.8s so stuff like 0.83, 0.84, 0.85. All of those are higher IFs than your screenshot. But again, during base my opinion from looking at a bunch of plans from different companies, and listening to coaches, its about engineering more TSS and CTL into the plan for those that can’t do 12-20 hours/week of base.
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15% more than 1096 is 1260.
13% less than 1260 is 1096.
You can’t compare PLs across WO types like that. Things like Beehive and Boarstone are the absolute peak of 2 hour endurance WOs. Comparable 2 hour SS would be level 8 or higher. It doesn’t really matter because no one ever said that there doesn’t exist SS WOs with lower kJs than endurance. The disagreement was with the claim that SS and endurance WOs typically have the same kJs.
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OMG completely.
PLEASE go and start your own thread and stop contaminating this one. No one cares which is more work! That’s not relevant to the Z2 discussion!
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I am missing nothing. I think you will find I have repeatedly said is it irrelevant.
I have been trying to get it back on track.
TR hasn’t taken down its blogs or support articles on training load, no need for me to explain things. Buy Skiba’s Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes because its a far easier read than Training and Racing with a Power Meter. Read it, in particular chapter 7 on engineering training and modeling/predicting performance. This stuff has been around a long time. CTL and TSS are about trends and the big picture.
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I will say that my long ride plus 2 hefty TR workouts is very hard going, on top of my mostly demanding job and family commitments (2 young kids). Also, While I am definitely faster, what I’m not really seeing is a significant reduction in my heart rate or significantly enhanced ability to work at higher power for longer (eg longer climbs), which is really what I want.
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Enough please.
Start another thread where you can argue these boring topics. Or better still, handbags at dawn 
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