And:
Below is directly from the_cog but it won’t let me link it properly for some reason.
FTP is the functional expression of maximal metabolic steady state. Historically, the latter has been operationalized as maximal lactate steady state, usually using Beneke’s criteria. There actually isn’t a lot of direct data in the literature, but the general consensus is that trained individuals can maintain that intensity for 40-70 min. In my book, that’s ~1 (NOT 1.000…) h, at least/especially when you consider the shallow slope of the intensity-duration relationship beyond the first few minutes of exercise.
If he hasn’t done a lot of threshold workouts (it doesn’t appear he has), and if he’s ok with his performance during his workouts in his other zones, I’d thing this is the approach for him to take…on a rested day, lower the resistance 10-20 watts below bottom of z4 and try a 3x10 at that wattage. When/if it gets too hard, bump it down another 5, or if it feels good after the 2nd one, try bumping the power up for the last one, increase your rest between intervals if you need to. If you can complete a workout at, say, 220 watts or whatever is that 10-20w below bottom of z4, then next week try to raise it 5 or 10 watts, and do the same 3x10. keep working on the 3x10, increasing wattage when you can, until you can do it at what you believe is threshold. If your legs are burning in the 1st or 2nd interval, you’re likely over your real threshold.
Seems like you need to get over the mental aspect of these, and since you haven’t done them, I’d say your best bet is as above, to work up to hitting threshold. This is what I have to do when I decide it’s time to do an FTP test or some VO2max workouts…start with 30/30s for a couple weeks to get the feel for the higher cadence and gewt the feel for my power and then progress up from maybe 6x or 7x 2 or 3 min intervals to 5 min intervals.
And I can attest that the threshold zone feels a lot better than SS when you’re able to stay on the power when you want to, for almost as long as you want to, in a group.
If anyone wants to listen to Coggan talk about FTP go to 22:00:
Me doing 4 minute intervals:
“When I open my eyes and wipe the tears away, there’s gonna be, what, 30 seconds of this interval left”
2:00
“Oh, man!”
Far too much Coggan chat… remember he turns up if you say his name too much… Like beetlejuice
Im sure this has been said, but its because your Z4 that you state is actually your Z5 (or Z5+). Sorry! Don’t kill the messenger!
Then at 4 min hitting the lap button and not being able to pedal so you fall into a heap on the side of the road.
Good times.
I couldn’t agree more. This!
There is a small cult on this forum that
questions whether we are experiencing the real Coggan or…
Being correct and being likeable are often strangers.
Not at all lol.
There are plenty of very knowledgeable and polite people in the exercise science field.
Coggan, while very knowledgeable, delights in subtly (or not so subtly) talking down to those he believes are beneath him (basically everyone).
A little update… tonight I completed Tweed +6 (7x5@102%) and rated it as Hard.
The intervals felt hard towards the end but always achievable. I found the rest (5min) to be more than adequate and felt ready to go again with time to spare.
I do wonder how much of this is a mental block of longer intervals. I found this workout significantly easier than the longer but less intense intervals of Shades, which I rated Very Hard.
I did make some changes to how I did the workout:
- Completed on Alpe du Zwift, free riding and not in workout mode. I had the trainer difficulty turned down to prevent much variation and I was able to keep my power steady and consistent.
- Even though my Pain Cave (garden shed) is about 9°C I added a fan this time. This meant I was getting pretty chilly on the rest periods but kept me nice and cool during the intervals.
I found not using ERG a big plus. I felt able to ride with the freedom of knowing that there was no chance I’d get bogged down in the spiral of doom. It also kept me more mentally alert, having to focus on my power rather than just closing my eyes and wishing I was dead. I also just really enjoyed the sense of completing a climb and overtaking other riders. I’m definitely someone who needs this sort of stimulus to add motivation to my rides.
I was very satisfised to complete a Threshold workout without being in a hole so I’ll stick with this new method and see where it takes me.
This is where VO2 on a hill wins every time. You are not clock watching. You just put the effort out and when you reach top or a particular land mark you recover dropping down the hill, then go again…
My local hill I use for this, takes 4 mins (to hit top) this time of year, takes about 3.5 mins when I’m at my peak for the year. I also have another hill I sometimes use, to give 5 min VO2 intervals.
Nice wirk
Good work and good luck going forward.
Re. the fan, I have a ‘wireless remote control socket’ that sits between the power outlet in my garage and the plug for the fan. It comes with a little remote that I put next to the laptop so I can turn the fan on and off while pedalling. Not expensive.
Apologies if you already knew these exist but it’s sometimes close to freezing as I’m training and I love it for intervals.
This right here is something you have to experience to understand.
im just here to tell what i experienced, not interessted in arguing who is right here and what definitions apply.
when i first started TR (after 1 year of cycling and 6months with a coach) i was in the same place. my lower zone work was fine and the upper end vo2 stuff as well. when it came to treshhold i had my problems so i decided to get to the lab and do a proper test. done that it was shown, that my treshhold was spot on but my mind was not prepared to ride in that zone because it is just not pleasant. treshhold is hard, it hurts and it is not fun. so i kept it (since it was backed up by the lab) and just worked my way up the PL Ladder. Fast forward to today i still hate treshhold work and it still hurts but i complete it but compared to guys here telling people 3x20 is EZ it is not for me and never was. the only way it gets “easy” is when i drop to 90% but anything above that (depending on the day) is just not fun in any way or form.
My experience: same as you and OP – Z4 hurt a lot, anything below and above was either easy or hard but nothing as unpleasant. I did lot of Sweetspot and Z4 that time but it did not get less hurtful.
~3y after starting structured training had injury and while recovering, had to limit myself to Z1/Z2 only but could push volume relatively high (8-12h/w → 14-16h/w). After 3 months of this, when started intensity again, Z4 had become surprisingly easy, TTE stretched out to 70min. Since then, when I have skipped Z4 for long time, it can be still hard, of course but it hasn’t been as painful any more.
My guess is that I updated FTP too frequently, mostly doing lot of short intervals but not sufficient time developing toward less/longer intervals → power was there but TTE was too short. Did not have enough tolerance for lactate handling byproducts, or something like that. By increasing low intensity volume possibly gave enough time to develop lactate handling machinery.