I have a serious issue with Threshold work which I just can’t seem to get my head around. My power zones feel like this:
Z2: love it, give me five hours, I can’t get enough
Z3: satisfyingly tough yet achievable. Can hold SS for decent length intervals
Z4: absolute hell. Struggle to even hold 5 minutes in zone. High HR, high REP, legs ouchy.
Z5 and above: love, love love. I just want to spend all my intensity days doing 30/30s.
I know this is likely to be a mix of mental and physical and I find that the more I struggle with Threshold the harder I find it to even start the workout on those days, knowing how painful it will be. Z4 workouts are my most failed and most likely to be skipped altogether and replaced with something else or just the sofa. It just doesn’t feel worth it but I’m sure I won’t reach my full potential without it.
I find threshold particularly hard on the turbo in ERG. When I’m able to train outside, a threshold effort on a long climb feels much more achievable, I think in part because there’s the motivation to get to the top of the hill. I also find it much easier on the trainer on a climb on Zwift rather than in ERG, but I think this might be because I’m not consistently sitting in zone, with moments of dipping below when the road flattens out a bit. Even a few seconds of relief in the midst of an effort seem to make a huge difference.
I made a bit of a breakthrough last week when I managed to complete Shades (3x8 @ 95%) I found it very hard and had to be completely rested and fully fueled to manage it.
For context, I’ve been riding with about eight years, I have an FTP of 232 which is 3.5w/kg and this is from AI FTP detection.
Any ideas how I can get over this? I hate threshold so much I’m always tempted just to focus on all the over zones.
If I were you this is what I might try … and I’m not, so this may not suit you:
I’d pick a climb that’s long enough for you to do 2 20 minute intervals at 90% of your AI FTP with a 5 minute recovery. May as well do it on Alpe du Zwift if you’re on Zwift. Free ride, not erg Let’s assume you can do this at an RPE of about 7.
Do it again 2 or 3 days later and just aim for an extra 5 or 10 watts on each interval.
Repeat every 3 days until you get to the point where you’re in danger of failing the second interval. Subtract 5 or 10 watts from the power you were going for and that’s your new FTP number. Or use the power you achieved in the last ride you had before the one where you nearly failed.
TL;DR Start at sweetspot and gradually nudge up the power until your RPE decouples.
That should not be a difficult workout if your FTP is correct. That’s 24 minutes at like high SweetSpot. I would probably say that your FTP is set too high if this is a hard workout.
He said he loves 30/30s. Which I find to be pretty easy and way over-classified by TR. I have a suspicion he’s not doing 5x5s if 3x8 @95% is a difficult workout for him.
I don’t understand the comments regarding FTP being too high. If I set my FTP to 210 watts that would make a lot of workouts ludicrously easy. Zone 2 for example probably wouldn’t get my HR above 110bpm.
There is always one zone (at least) which is training hell for each of us…I can ride tempo and sweet spot all day long, but VO2 efforts completely wreck me and I loathe them with my entire being.
Sounds like threshold is your zone that you struggle with…that is great because you have identified a weakness. So now develop strategies to address it. If doing them in ERG mode doesn’t work for you, pick a climb nearby where you can do them outside. If no climb is available, do the workout as an Outdoor workout on Zwift and climb the AdZ or the VenTop.
The answer is “Don’t do your endurance rides (Z2 rides) at a prescribed percentage of FTP. Do them at an intensity that feels good (RPE of maybe 3 to 5 depending on overall volume) and compare that to your FTP afterwards”.
The only rides, IMO, that should be prescribed as a percentage of FTP (if at all) are Sweetspot and Threshold. That’s it.
I know running is different but looking back at my college training, “threshold” (which was called anything from 10 mile to 1/2 marathon pace) coach would have us start with 20 minutes (about 4-ish miles). The first one really was painful and it took a few of those before you started to get your
“sea legs.” Over the course of the training phase we would build up to about 6 miles (30-ish minutes). It took a good amount of base fitness to get there and was a grind. If we would go further than that the paces would move to more marathon goal pace as you were essential then getting into a race effort.
Threshold is hard because it is… well… hard. You are pushing a really uncomfortable effort for a long time. Thinking back to some of the half marathons I ran PRs I remember going though the first mile thinking how the heck am I going to hold this?
If I were in your shoes I would keep it at 95% and try to do a 20 min interval (i.e. lolita -1). That’s it… that’s the workout. Then I’d do it again. Then after you seem to not be suffering as much shoot for 25-30 minutes (i.e. Lola -1). This zone is something that you need to train and you need to do a few workouts before your body gets used to that kind of work.
What kind of races are you doing? Threshold is great and definitely moves the needle but is it necessary for what you are doing?
I think the issue is to perhaps think about the full physiological continuum to set “zones” rather than everything off a single FTP. It may well be that your “LT1” is ok relative to the set FTP but that “LT2” is actually less developed and then finally that you have high anaerobic work capacity (explaining why something like 30/30s ok) If i was you and you dont want to change FTP then i would dial down the threshold by 5-10% and slowly build to trying to get to 100% over time. Sounds like you are training above threshold and its a non linear increase in effort as soon as you go just above threshold…
Check out Phil Skiba’s “house” analogy for physiology…different folks will have different levels for their roof, ceiling and floor in relation to each other.
Me neither, but it is a claim that always been made when people have issues with threshold. I think it’s a very simplified analys. My guess is that you are blessed/cursed with a higher than average amount of fast twitch muscle fibers. They fatigue quickly and take longer to recover. To be able to do work at threshold they need to be very fresh. They can feel recovered but as when you increase the intensity it becomes obvious that they are not.
My solution is to stay away from longer intervals at threshold. Last Saturday I did Mono, a shorter over/under threshold workout that usually works OK. I mostly focus on sweetspot at 90-95% FTP instead, though. For me, they provide plenty of training stress with a lot less fatigue, making room for some hard Z5 workouts.
Remember that someone’s ability to realize their ability to work at FTP varies substantially day to day depending on how fresh they are.
When someone is struggling to do 5 minutes at ftp it’s incorrect. It’s different than if someone was failing 4x10 at ftp. I would suspect that OP is both anaerobically stronger and their ftp is well off.