Is this an okay VO2 max session?
I’ve only ever done TrainerRoad’s “VO2 max” workouts, so took a crack at doing some “fish out of water” breathing intervals not in ERG mode for the first time.
5x VO2Max:
My HR only got just above my Garmin estimated LTHR of 177 bpm in the intervals. This training is at 5am though so maybe that has an affect on HR.
Go harder at the start. At least, say, 20 seconds at > 120rpm and then try to hang on to that power. You won’t be able to, but that is 100% OK. That should get your HR and breathing up to where you want them.
You may want to start with 3 minute intervals, though while you’re dialling it all in.
Perfect, thanks. I’m assuming it’s fine to sandwich it between Z2 work if I have the time to ride more?
Adding Z2 is always OK 
Yes, this is one of my favorite part of any workouts – after air gasping intervals it is absolute calmness and feeling that I can go forever 
Recently took it even one step further, mixing VO2max/4x3 + SS/1x40. During SS interval, first 2-3min feels awful but after that same forever power feeling arrives
I’ve never found a big training block before that much time off to be of much long term benefit unless you’re pretty new. If you’re not, in order to properly bed in adaptations, it seems like everyone needs to be at that level of fitness for at least a few months before it “sticks”. Which once again underlines the point that consistency is the foundation of fitness, which can be overlooked since cyclists are such an internally motivated and consistently training bunch (oftentimes too much so), but it’s times like this that we get to see it really play out.
Thanks Kolie. I’ve tried the hard start vo2 sessions three times now over the last few years. They always put me into a state of deep fatigue like no other.
As I discussed with Kurt above, I started off my block with a 5x5 (hard start and ave power @ my 5 minute). I can do the workout just fine but then my legs hurt for nearly a week. I throttled back to workouts like 4x3, 5x3, 4x4 and it was much more manageable.
I’m 58 this year and it just seems that I can’t do anything like a 5x5. It always seems weird to me that I can do the workout and it feels good at the time but then I pay for it for days. It’s not a fueling issues. Eating plenty of carbs.
The mixed block was going ok with a shorter time in zone on the VO2 and a threshold workout but then we got influenza b in the house and I was sort of starting over after a few weeks.
You’re 58? I’d start you at 4x3 and work up from there but probably 20min total interval time (and mostly 12-15min) as a max for these, if the purpose is to raise vo2max.
Based on the info here, I wouldn’t do a whole block or hard start, especially as fatigue mounts it takes less effort to raise VO2 rapidly. It’s difficult to raise vo2max in people in their 50s and beyond. Not that it can’t be done, but even just considering slower recovery and smaller response to training, it’s difficult to get the appropriate stimulus. More recovery time between hard workouts (to do other types of lower intensity workouts like FTP), and shorter efforts—all of which you’ve already done—are a good approach and what I would have recommended.
I hope you’re doing the high cadence version too, since if you’re not that’s probably where a lot of fatigue and soreness are coming from. More power be damned. I also find soreness can be exacerbated with poor nutrition and sleep. It may also be worth checking your bike fit since a lot of high load while overworking one muscle group can create some pretty significant issues.
Yes, I was doing hard start. I definitely found 12-15 minutes or work much more manageable.
I also experimented with the ladder intervals in the Vaccari paper (did them hard start) and that was kind of fun. I did 30 minutes of total time which works out to 15+ minutes of time in zone.
Week one in the books. I’ll write up a recap in the coming days. Lots of learnings
Week 1 recap
Training week.
Mon - Rest
Tue - VO2 4x5 min TR workout Cramer
Wed - VO2 4x5 min TR workout Cramer
Thur - Easy Enurance .56IF TR workout Griffin
Fri - VO2 7x3 min TR workout Mount Deborah
Sat - Easy Endurance .61IF TR Workout Freeborn
Sun - Outside Long ride - 3hrs easy IF .63
Notes: All VO2 done inside on trainer per Kollie’s advice. All at 110rpm +/- 2-3 rpm. Started 1 gear harder than I thought I could handle for the whole interval and when I felt my RPM dropping below 110 I shifted down and hung on for dear life. Forgot about power, just went for it and gave it everything I had for that particular interval.
Learnings: Put ego away and focused on the process. Hit the rpms and worry about everything else after the fact. By the end of the week I could sense my rpms dropping and would increase it by feel - even with my eyes closed and close to crying (lol). Focus on the interval you are in at the moment - give it all you have. Don’t worry about what comes next. Just go deep and deal with the recovery and next interval when it arrives.
Post session fatigue is real. Even though, because of the higher rpm, you aren’t mashing the pedals so your quads aren’t fried - the CNS fatigue is something else. I really felt that in the legs during the easy days. I felt ‘fine’ and ‘rested’ but once I started pedalling and, oh boy. Thankfully after about 20 mins I settled in and got the endurance done. Actually felt they helped me finish the week strong as I ‘rode’ away the fatigue.
I did the two 4x5 workouts back to back as I was expecting the fatigue, but man come Saturday that endurance ride my legs felt like they weighed tonne. I originally was going to have two easy endurance days in between VO2 workout 2 and 3, but I felt recovered enough on the Thursday to hit another VO2 session.
Saturday’s endurance ride def helped the legs as the legs felt pretty good on the Sunday. I must say I even felt like blasting a few of the climbs (placebo I know).
Next week I am making both endurance rides at .56 IF (same session).
VO2 workouts will be Tues/Wed - 6x4 TR workout Mount Alyeska. Fri or Sat? 7x3 Mount Deborah
same endurance and long rides.
Other stuff:
Nutrition: Using easy days to get my caloric deficits. (I’m running a small deficit as I approach race season. <200 cals a day) Not fuelling the VO2 sessions as they are 1hr in length, however, I am eating approx 60g carbs 15-20 mins prior just not fuelling while riding. That works for me as I don’t do well with stomach stuff under load. I also get most of my calories from food. I do not eat under maintenance plus workout cals on hard days. Deficits only on easy days.
Sups - before bed (creatine and magnesium (hard days) or VitC, VitD and Zinc (easy days) in a drink. All in powder form. This is long term use and not just for this block.
Recovery: aiming for 8 hrs min in the bed each night. Achieving that pretty consistently. Sleep has been normal.
Overall - feel like I had a solid week of training. Learned a lot from session 1 and session 2 around how to pace intervals so I can get through the sessions. Also around how they feel. Terrible. Terrible is the answer. I now know how to get my heart into the zones and how to keep it there without blowing my legs apart. Figured that out after the first interval. Oh my. Spin fast is the answer. lol
There’s lots to unpack and figure out and many things going through my head - but I’m putting my faith in the plan and having a crack. How that translates to performance I’ll only really know in a few months but for now I’m focused on consistency and the things I can control.
I’ve purposely left out posting numbers and data points etc as I feel like sometimes they derail the conversation from the process and controllables to arbitrary nonsense.
That’s it for this week. If nobody cares let me know and I’ll save myself the time writing this. I’ll just go tell me dog how awesome I am.
Have a great week everyone and I will report back after week two.
That sounds tough, I wouldn’t run a deficit during a VO2 block. You need the energy even during easy days to recover from the work.
def tracking it. Deficit is so small that it’s barely noticeable.
Ouch! I’m impressed, but also, I would be dead.
Good stuff.
The three cautions I would give for the general population here:
Back-to-backs. Personally if this is your first go at a structured VO2 block, I wouldn’t. The people I have stack these workouts are very few and far between. I do not typically coach the truly high level client like Kolie does, but I’m pretty choosy who I even offer that option to.
Again if this is your first structured block, I don’t recommend doing 24 minute workouts. MED applies to these, for sure. 15-21 minutes is plenty for most mortals IMO.
Caloric deficit - no. This is not the time, IMO. It’s going to catch up to you.
Otherwise all the stuff you describe about the execution sounds pretty good, particularly your description of “CNS fatigue” moreso than leg fatigue. To me, that’s an indication you’re doing these right. Nice work!
Don’t diet doing vo2s, and you should not run a deficit, even a small one. Add more rest. And even if you’re not posting your numbers, absolutely be should paying attention to the numbers though, since if you’re not recovering between workouts you may not be getting much if anything out of a focused training block. It matters in evaluating the process, which cannot exist in a theoretical vacuum.
Thanks for replying. I am tracking my numbers. Both cycling and sleep. I always do so I have a pretty good data set to compare.
I’ve taken onboard the nutrition advice and I’ll cease the deficit for the next two weeks.
FYI - I’ve managed over 55 mins at 95%and above MAx HR for the three sessions this far.
Thanks for the taking the time to reply. I appreciate the feedback
Thanks for the reply Kurt.
The things you mentioned were some of things ruminating around my head during week 1 around rest and recovery
Taking feedback I’ve ceased the deficit and am eating more as of today. Even tho my deficit was small I also see the reasoning why not to.
As for the session length that’s an interesting one. I only have 2 sessions at 24 planned. The rest are all at 20+21.
I figured they would be the peak sessions of the block.
I’ll think about it more and see where I fall.
Thanks again for the feedback. Your contribution to this thread is what I based a lot of my original plan around. Yours and Kollies of course
The key is overall stimulus, not single-workout stimulus. So if a 24 min session is going to push you over the fatigue edge and cost you one more 20 min session, we can all recognize that 4 < 20 and that’s a mistake. This is why knowing when to pull the plug in these workouts (and blocks) is critical. I’d be more likely to give 24-25 min sessions to someone doing 1x Vo2s as part of a mixed block than I would to someone doing a block of 3+ Vo2s every week, for sure. Even then, I find that 15-20 min in a session is plenty for most of my athletes in mixed blocks. Variance comes with volume, experience, training history, etc.
TL;DR: I’d rather you give me 20 quality minutes 9 times than 20 quality minutes 7 times + 18 quality minutes and 6 minutes of square pedaling dog 
twice. 
all good advice I appreciate that. I have the 6 x4 scheduled today and am leaning towards ditching the last interval and keeping it to 5x4.
