Thanks for the detailed response. I’m in materials research, so don’t get me started on additive manufacturing. I’ve lost count the amount of times I’ve had to tell people it’s not a cure all.
1 Like
Of course not, you are right here. But I feel that too many people here poo-pooed it a little too quickly, thinking “oh, this is just a simple thing and looks like pure marketing.” It isn’t. I just had to see one photo to know what it is, and I was excited because stuff “I work on” is making it to the market. (Just to be clear, I work on one very particular niche of metamaterials, which is not relevant to WaveCel. I don’t do experiments either.)
IMHO the crux will be mass manufacturing — something I don’t have any expertise in. (I just mentioned 3d printing, because to my knowledge that does open up new opportunities for lower-volume products.) And while I can’t judge whether Trek was successful at making a superior product, gaining expertise in periodically structured materials is a smart bet on a burgeoning future technology. Whether it will pay off in this particular instance remains to be seen.
2 Likes
As someone who’s gotten a concussion while racing, this is big. I went out and bought one Wednesday. It’s a bit heavy and looks like airflow won’t be great. But I’ll feel safer in the peloton and the wife is happier. That’s easily worth a few gram and $150.
I’m pretty happy too that Trek is paying attention to rider safety and investing heavily. Definitely gives them a “halo effect”.
3 Likes
Seems MIPS are disputing the claims made by Trek.
The part on how to actually quantify the results is interesting though, whether or not Trek uses a different model to make these claims.
The difficulty here lies with the fact that Trek uses a different testing methodology, including a spine analog. (From the short marketing video, the tests Trek has used to determine the efficacy of this new helmet indeed seem much more sophisticated.) So it could very well be that the advantages are not revealed in the test MIPS uses. According to Virginia Tech’s helmet rating, the WaveCel is indeed the best-performing helmet, but in second-place is an older Bontrager helmet with a MIPS liner. (Plus, they use an arbitrary quantitative score to rate helmets.)
However, Trek should have anticipated this and been either more cautious than saying “48 x more effective” — which is marketing BS unless you put it in the proper context. Even if you do, you would talk past most people and you would still be left with a fantastic claim. Trek should now work with MIPS and other industry-leading research institutions on helmet safety to improve testing procedures in general. Because the situation could really be analogous to early crash tests that led to car companies optimizing for crash tests that were not representative of most accidents (e. g. running 100 % coverage tests rather than partial coverage tests, and using a rigid structure instead of one that deforms).
2 Likes
(Plus, they use an arbitrary quantitative score to rate helmets.)
I thought their score (the raw score, not the star rating) was a weighted average of concussion risks from impacts at different points (see their testing methodology paper here. Not sure where the weights come from exactly though.
The way they calculate the concussion risk differs from the way Trek did, but they still calculate it off of linear acceleration and rotational velocity. Trek’s study shows decreases in both of those in the Trek tests. So, the difference between the studies is likely the actual testing setups causing differences in the actual acceleration and velocities.
Good catch on the spine analog. Was there anything else that seemed more sophisticated about the Trek methodology?
1 Like
I measured the biggest size around (just above my brow and around the lump in the back) this morning and got 58.5 cm [23"].
Latest Cycling Tips podcast inverviewed the inventers of wavecell. Worth a listen.
1 Like
I have one. Nice lid, but kinda hot in the summer.
2 Likes
Thanks Chad, appreciate the measurement. I’ll have to go see if I can try one locally only way to know for sure!
2 Likes
I went ahead and ordered a Specter which I will use as an XC MTB helmet and see how it is. If all goes well, then I may consider trying the XXX for the road.
1 Like
I watched the video and looked at the study. Very interesting from a safety perspective. However, of significant concern is ventilation. They make a marketing claim on the website that is not substantiated and the study is void of any testing on the affect to airflow due to the presence of the wavecel.
This is potentially a great invention. However, I would think they would want to test and publish the results of wind tunnel testing (with and without wavecel) to gain broader appeal.
3 Likes
Perhaps “arbitrary” came across as dismissive, that wasn’t my intention. (I was speaking as a scientist where “arbitrary” does not necessarily carry a negative connotation.) Knowing how scientists work, I am sure a lot of thought has gone into this. You are right that this score is computed from the results of selected tests with chosen weights. There is nothing wrong with the score, we should just be careful about interpreting it. Plus, Trek was proud to say that they developed their own, in their minds better testing regime, so many of the advantages that WaveCel brings could just not be visible in older, standardized tests.
I haven’t had time to dig a bit deeper into Trek’s claims, and since they mentioned that their methodology is “open source” we at least know what they did.
In any case, just seeing what lengths Trek has gone to makes me very happy — even if the new WaveCel helmets turn out to be a “slight” improvement over, say, helmets with MIPS liners (like my POC Octal). I am happy because companies invest in cycling, pushing things forward and are not afraid of adopting new technologies.
That’s a fair point. Sometimes safety devices make products worse in other aspects, at least initially. (Think of all the talk about the added weight of disc- vs. rim brake-equipped bikes.)
1 Like
How’s the coverage on the back of the XXX vs the Trek MTB helmets?
I need an aero helmet for Leadville, but I’d also like to upgrade my existing MTB helmet.
Ideally, I could just use the same helmet for road and MTB. If the XXX won’t be great for MTB, I’ll probably get the Ballista for road/Leadville, and use the $100 saved vs the XXX towards a MTB helmet.
Minimal rear coverage compared to an MTB lid.
I am headed to work, but will snap some pics for you when I get home later.
1 Like
@mcneese.chad thanks for checking on the sunglasses holding ability. Unfortunately, exactly what I thought from looking at the pictures - no way to fit your sunglasses into the helmet. A minor thing, but one I use on long climbs on hot days.
1 Like
Too bad and a real oversight as it seems to be more of a common design element these days.
I just received the Specter on my doorstep which I plan to use as my everyday XC helmet. It’s coverage is pretty similar to other XC helmets. I thought for everyday use this would be better than the XXX, since the vents look a lot bigger on the Specter. It’s not an “aero” helmet per se, but it would be interesting to see some aero data on it and how much of trade-off it has.
I’m intested to hear how others find the XXX in terms of ventilation and heat. This would be a major factor in deciding whether to use it for Leadville. The POC Ventral Spin is aero and still ventilates very well. I wore it for a road century last year on a hot day and it was very good. I wonder if this will be @Jonathan choice for Leadville? The Giro Aether MIPS is another aero helmet that has very good ventilation. I think it would also be a good choice for Leadville.
For coverage, especially in the back, you are going to get more from a mountain bike trail helmet, like the POC Trabec or Trabec Race.
3 Likes
I wore my XXX out today. Heat wasn’t an issue but it was like 65-70 outside. Probably won’t have a good sense of heat until it warms up into the 80s-90s. My issue with it was that the boa dug into the back of my head as it was too low and it did feel a bit clunky on top of my head. I wear a medium Specialized lid, so I got a medium XXX. This seems larger and envelops over and down onto your head more, very little space between my eyebrows and where the helmet begins. I think I might need a small. After the ride, I realized you can move the boa in or out. It was in the middle, I moved it to the most inward position, and feels better and seems like its solved the boa digging into my upper neck issue… I did try on a small at the shop, which is def. more snug, maybe a bit too much… I’ll keep the M for awhile longer and see if moving the boa inward helped vs. trading for the tighter fitting small. They have a 30 day return policy so I have some time.
3 Likes
Gplama was a bit concerned with the waves being a bit sharp if you were to have a big stack. What are your thoughts?
Also curious if the Specter has the same sunglasses issues as the XXX