TR VO2Max sessions, how should they feel and what biometrics are useful indicators?

I’m not sure I understand your point, but I’m assuming you are thinking AT will eventually catch up to make the workouts hard enough. It’s not my experience with VO2 Max. I think the 110, 115, 120% intervals Trainerroad has at 30 seconds, 60 seconds, even 2 minutes are never hard enough. They don’t go high enough on short intervals or long enough for long intervals. I’m not saying the TR workouts don’t have any value, but they don’t seem to really get to VO2Max work for me and I’m not particularly gifted I don’t think. Also, I think the lower PL workouts have value in their structure. The number of intervals, duration, etc are valid for a beginner, but the issue is the intensity isn’t right for everyone. Therefore, my suggestion is to stick to the workouts structure, but change the intensity.

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None of the screen shot sessions are VO2max sessions IMO.
Intervals far too short, recoveries far too long.
They are VO2max based on Coggan zones and % of FTP alone. That does make them VO2max sessions.

@russell.r.sage points this out, but doesn’t explicitly say it.

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I am not sure that any VO2max sessions sub PL 6 are VO2max for me, for most I would suggest you would need to be at PL 5 at least.

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Yep, that’s what I meant, plus speeding up this “eventual” part by jump-starting to more appropriate PL by choosing known workout as starter. For you, it might be different and harder workout. Point is, this is simplest way to let AT know, from which PL range to choose workouts for you.

As for longer intervals, there are many such workouts in TR library. Look in VO2max Long Suprathreshold section. Siyeh is hardest there (PL 11.6), 4x16min at 106% with 2min recoveries. If this is your starting point, then AT can’t help you indeed and you need manually increase intensity yourself.

I myself am more mediocre in VO2max department: start with PL 5-6 and progress over 6 weeks to PL 8-9 (usually using 5x5, next time will try 4x8)

EDIT: actually current AT implementation works up to PL 10, i.e. once you do Duffer Peak (3x16 at 106%, 4min recoveries), it will stop giving you sensible recommendations and you have to progress on your own.

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I’m not trying to be argumentative, but Siyeh is not what I would look for in a VO2Max workout. And that’s part of the problem with having these rigidly defined zones for VO2Max. Siyeh is essentially a supra-threshold workout, but 16 minute intervals for VO2Max work doesn’t sound right to me. I think anything from 30seconds to 5 minutes is probably the sweet spot, pardon the pun, but it’s how hard you do those that matters as well as how much rest. a 2:1 work to recovery is a good place to start. Intensity varies from person to person.

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My next VO2Max session, November 28, is Brasted.

Brasted consists of 3 sets of 13x30/15’s where you’ll ride at 120% FTP for 30 seconds before recovering briefly for only 15 seconds between repeats.

I’m looking forward to it. Between now and then a ramp test, which I hope to gain +10%, so it should meet expectations in difficulty.

I am reading comments like this a lot of this on the forum as of late and I agree with most of it but want to add that while VO2 is very hard, it is challenging, it often leaves you so tired you can’t imagine doing a cool down. But it is not really a “go as hard as you can” pace.

You definitely feel it at the end of the workout but with 1:1 rest should be repeatable. What you are describing (full gas) would need much more than 1:1 recovery. For example for elite runners, VO2 is between 3k and 5k race pace. Doing 2, 3, 4 maybe even 5 minutes is repeatable with 1:1 recovery. If you go max effort for an 800 or 1500 you will not recover in time to repeat and maintain the same pace (because max is not VO2 it is max effort).

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Yes I should have been more clear on “all out” I basically pace them to where completing the last interval in the workout is the failure point. So for a 4x5, while each one is very very hard the final one may end at 3:30 or if I am feeling great 4:30. But I would not be able to complete a 5th one at quality.

Might take a workout or 2 to dial it in if your newer to training but you should get a good feel for what is a maximal but sustainable effort level.

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Totally agree!

Usually for me the first VO@ of the season is an absolute disaster. Second one hurts really bad. Third one not as bad as the first two and by the fourth I feel like I can finally suffer through it and not have the wheels fall off. :sweat_smile:

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Haha yes! I have become better at it over the years so now it only takes about 1 session to know roughly how hard I can go it’s still always a very rude wake-up after not doing them for a while. :nauseated_face:

I never get the gasping for air comment. I can hit my max heart rate and not gasp for breath.

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What about if you hit your max HR or within 3-5% and stay there for 5 - 8 minutes, how is your breathing then?

The simple blunt answer is this:

Pope is an easy VO2 max session. Long recoveries following short efforts.

I believe it’s designed as a barometer to see how you feel, and then make decisions from there.

I rarely hit my max heart rate as I dont push to it…over 60. It just is noted after an outside ride that I was up there. Breathing wise I just dont get to the state that is described. …but prior experience even doing an all out run when I was 20 and measuring heart rate at the end of my run was over 200 I didnt get to that state. Like I said…I dont get the comment as it just doesnt relate to me.

If your FTP is right - generally, hour long VO2max workouts with IFs in the high 0.8s will be hard; and by the time you get to the low 0.9s, they’ll be close to your max ability.

Brasted has an IF of 0.84 - so one of the easier VO2max workouts.

Spencer (IF of 0.89) and Kaiser (IF of 0.92) will likely be in the hard - very hard range.

If you are using adaptive training, and rate your VO2max workouts as easier - presumably you’ll be served up harder workouts that will challenge you.

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Thanks DaveWh, very useful calibration regarding IF. Are IF comparable across zones, e.g. sweet spot .87 IF to VO2max .87 IF?

Went back and noted I had done Rattlesnake-1, .87 IF, couples months back when I had a recorded 118 FTP. HR 145-150 during most intervals with cadence @ 100. It was on the higher side of moderate.

Presumably – I am using adaptive training, but haven’t seen adaptions during my current ‘build’ phase. Last phase it seemed every session had adaptions to be applied.

Right now I’m looking for weight loss and don’t fuel my workouts. In a few weeks I begin Traditional Base High Volume and once I start that I absolutely fuel – I’ll back off from 60 grams of carbs/hour to 40 grams/hour. However, the crits and CX races I race in are 45/30 minutes long and for those I just make sure I’m properly fueled going into it.

Fueling during the workouts helped me stave off mid-wintercolds and flus + took me to PR long power.

Similar concept, in that IF indicates how hard a workout is. But comparing between Threshold and VO2max can be tricky, as depending on the rider, they may find Threshold workouts harder than VO2max (or vice versa) for a given IF.

If you’re in the middle of the bell curve in each zone, then yes, the workouts will feel similarly difficult (for a given workout duration).

Note: TrainerRoad uses “progression levels” because IF isn’t a perfect measure of workout difficulty. But it’s still pretty accurate in comparing workouts of the same duration.

That’s a 45 min workout. 60 mins at the same IF is quite a bit harder. This difference is captured by the progression level. Example:

Rattlesnake -1: 45 mins, 0.88 IF, 6.3 VO2max progression level

Spencer: 60 mins, 0.89 IF, 7.5 VO2max progression level

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Fuel your workouts. You really are not helping your cycling or your weight loss. Under fueling only comes back to make you feel everything harder. May impact your motivation etc…

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Weight loss is doing well and I’m not really adhering to any structure ATM. I’m just noodling around testing out changes to my Little Shop of Power, in “pre-season” mode. I’ve gone through the underfuelling wringer before and once I start notice some telltale signs I’ll change my apporach. I’ll also commit to full fueling once my noodling turns into rigorous training. Thanks for the advice, I KNOW it works.

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