Evidence 1: What is your first instinct when a muscle is tight? Stretch.
Evidence 2: When stretching at night, you generally feel better the next day.
Evidence 3: You are running and you calf muscle is tight. What do you do? Stop and stretch it.
Do you really think stretching never does anything useful?
@eddie the high intensity, low mileage training of the 90’s was the ultimate demise of American distance running. I think you pose an interesting question though: is "running high mileage… what makes them great, or are they great and so they can run high mileage?
Certainly genetics is king, and generally those who are more talented can run less than their competition and still win. But going back to the 90’s example… was it that there was no talent or was it the talent wasn’t running the mileage? Not surprisingly, the successful ones such as Bob Kennedy were.
I agree that non-elites can get 90% there (maybe more) without excessive mileage, but for the truly elite (i.e. Top 10 at Chicago… which was 2:09… or 4:55 miles or faster) you are going to need to put massive amounts of volume and intensity. You simply can’t run sub 5 min miles for 26 miles running 30 miles per week. There’s just no way around it.
That’s not evidence. I could just as easily rub dirt on it. Or use a theragun. The question is, does it prevent injury, or help treat it? Or does it cause harm? I can 100% attribute at least one injury to excessive stretching in yoga class.
If my calf is cramping and rub dirt on it… it doesn’t feel better.
You said stretching, not excessive stretching. And for what it is worth, most things you do excessively, isn’t good for you.
It might, have you tried?
As normal course of business I don’t stretch. If something is wrong, I may do a lot of things. Whether any of them help, I don’t know.
When people speak of stretching, it’s typically the regimented kind. You have a routine you follow. And there is no evidence that I have ever seen that would suggest this is beneficial.
I get it… you are an anti-stretcher. For what its worth, I don’t like to do it either.
I realize I am not going to convince you otherwise but there’s something to say for mobility and flexibility. You can stretch in many ways, be it dynamic (i.e. drills, PT after injury, etc.) or the traditional static stretching. If you have never felt better after stretching out a tight muscle I don’t know what to say. Works for me and the athletes I have coaches the last few decades. Best of luck to you with the dirt. 
It can feel better, and it can be damaged by it.
I think at most we can only say with confidence that stretching can be good in some situations.
I think that’s a logical point of view.
I also do not stretch as a matter of course, I have only found benefit from one stretch/strength activity - eccentric calf raises. I have only one recurring injury, a right calf strain every year or two and regular eccentric calf raises, helped loosen and strengthen it.
I’ve also found dropping the heel when cycling helps as does weighted squats.
But I skip the club stretch routine after every run.
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Changing subject slightly, I do like activation exercises in warmup - high knees, butt kicks, fast feet etc.
As mentioned, a lot of the forums are toxic cesspools! Somehow the TR forum has not devolved into a mess over the years.
Not a forum, but something I came across recently w/lots of good information: https://runningwritings.com
Steve Magness as mentioned by @Jolyzara is good too!
I’ve mentioned it here before, last year and/or this year, that a large group of the triathletes I know only run 3x week. E.g., Tue-Intervals, Th-Intervals or Tempo, Su-Long w/work like 10-20km at MP. These guys all run sub3 marathons come Dec or Jan. The easy runs are all replaced by swims and easy bike rides.
The link between more mileage and higher performance doesn’t necessarily tell us that the higher performance is solely based on the higher mileage though. Yes, “high” mileage can work in some scenarios, and is often an important part of the very elite, but again, is the correlation there because those high performers are a different kind of athlete?
It seems to me like the extra mileage that those elite athletes are able to tack on without (or with) injury is essentially a turbocharger that they’re able to activate once they’ve gotten the majority of the way there and are already ahead of the more average athletes.
Also, I think in the next 2-5 years we’ll discover more than we already know about running economy. It’s likely much more than just aerobic stimulus over time. That can be an important part of endurance training, and certainly plays a role, but to get 90% of the way there, I think there are other ways. 
My opinion is that this topic can be broken into two camps: elite runners and recreational runners. It has been shown many times over that elites need “high” mileage to truly be elite. What the definition of high is can be argued (>60 miles/week, >80 miles/week, etc.). Us regular folk can get or stay “fast” on “low” mileage. The definition of fast and low can also be argued.
I have been able to maintain a 6 min/mile and top ten finishes in sprint triathlons into my 40s. I am a low running milage triathlete (15 miles/week, peeking around 25 when training for 70.3’s). How much does my swim and bike volume play into my running speed? Have I carried over speed from playing football, basketball and baseball through high school (all much more fast twitch sports)? Genetics (dad played college football)? Consistency (I train consistently 7-9 hours/wk)? And that’s just me. Imagine trying to parse out 10s or 100s or 1000s of people and all the variables.
The thing I love about training is that it is an experiment. I have used TrainerRoad, Xert, Garmin Suggested workouts, built my own plans, and followed static TrainingPeaks plans. Which worked the best? I don’t know because they all built off off what I gained/learned/built in the previous seasons and 40+ years of athletics. My two most important take-aways: (1) consistency matters more than specifics and (2) listen to my body (rest!).
I love the discussion (partly because there isn’t an answer - many roads lead to “fast”)!
I have to believe those athletes have done more than 3x week in the past to get to a foundation level of fitness to be sub3 marathoners.
A lot of random folks that win local races or come out of nowhere say “I only ran a few times a week… oh yeah I ran track in college, I trained soccer 6x days a week through my 20’s, etc.”
For those running sub 3 at 3 runs a week, i’m very jealous.
My toxic trait is that I am not elite, but I want to train like I am
It’s “only” 3 days of running per week, but it’s also mostly intensity. And again, they swim and ride relatively easy the rest of the week. Their weekly total volume is typically >10hrs.
Again, lots of ways to skin a cat!
This a good reminder of what stretching is, when considering what it might be good or bad for
Training history has got to matter hugely. I’ve got a lifetime of physical work in my body too. Hence the first time I ran 5k it was in 21.30, the 2nd 20.30 and the following week 19.30. Then I did a half marathon at a point where 8km had been my longest run (the week before). Did that in 1.30.
Annoying huh? But the product of years of work, climbing, windsurfing and cycling, before running got its turn.
Is there a 2025 thread yet?
6 posts were merged into an existing topic: TR Running Thread 2025
Yes! I just started one. TR Running Thread 2025