Tom Danielson and Erg Mode

[bbarrera]

@graemeo

This is nonsensical. Every cyclist can ‘control power’. Using erg during the winter doesn’t make anyone forget how to push the pedals normally once they’re out of the roads.

Exactly.

[MI-XC]

@Drew_Friestedt

In order to control the power you make you cannot use ERG mode,

Huh, . Aren’t we training physiological systems at/or percentages of our FTP depending on the season’s training periodization and the workout’s intended goals? I’m not sure people are trying to dial in on the trainer…

@Drew_Friestedt

controlling power during transitions is especially important (not dropping power when you shift)

I reserve those skills when I’m outside and focus on improving my power indoors, but maybe I’m just doing it wrong, I hear what you’re saying, your point is interesting and I’ll take it under consideration.

[bbarrera]

FWIW my indoor time is also focused on pedaling smoothness and controlling power during transitions.

[ErickVH]

I do 90%+ of my time on the bike on the trainer in erg mode. I have gotten several unsolicited comments that they love my pulls because I’m rock steady on pacing and an easy wheel to follow. If ERG made it so you couldn’t control power this wouldn’t be the case. Seems silly.

[Tanner1280]

@MI-XC

controlling power during transitions is especially important (not dropping power when you shift)

This is actually an important skill and also in regards to controlling unnecessary spikes when accelerating. Watch the crit videos @Nate_Pearson posted and you can see the difference in smoothness of the more and less experienced riders in both the race speed and their pedal stroke.

FWIW this thread prompted me to listen to TD’s podcast last night (I have a 2.5hr commute so why not?). He’s not particularly adept at explaining himself, but much of his reasoning seems sound. His breakaway riding tips were actually interesting and better than most similar segments I’ve listened too, and I like his take on FTP obsession and the coaching business. Watts for $$$.

I was prepared to write him off and his style isn’t really for me, but the guy is extremely earnest and obviously passionate about what he’s doing. He’s also very clearly qualified to give race advice and spoke well to the amateur level athlete’s situation. Won’t be in my regular podcast rotation but I’ll take a look now and then.

[MI-XC]

@Tanner1280

This is actually an important skill and also in regards to controlling unnecessary spikes when accelerating

Not sure anyone was debating it wasn’t. The disagreement was with somehow that using ERG over the winter would somehow diminish one’s ability to do so.

[Drew_Friestedt]

This is obviously not an argument someone is going to “win”. Think of it as a different perspective.

Envision an effort that is really hard. Assume your FTP is 350. And you want to simulate a real world situation on a short hill climb at the end of a race. Everyone is attacking. Legs are tired from the race, and legs are tired from the week. The effort puts you on the edge of blowing up. You need to do everything in your power to not go over the numbers (to not blow) and you need to hit the numbers to hang with the group.

These are the sort of situations that Tom trains and he simulates this in his workouts. He gives this stuff on tired legs, at the end of a workout, and the end of a hard week. I need to control my power (myself) in order to not blow. If I used ERG, I would just put my head down and stamp out the power. The machine would rail me right into the power.

3 mins seated 400w @ 90 rpm
20 secs Standing 425w 80 rpm
10 secs easy

3’ of this alternating back and forth
30 sec Standing 400w @ 80 rpm
1 min Seated 330w @ 70 rpm

But in the real world, in a race, that is not how it works. You need to be able to make the power, control the power yourself, control the surges so you don’t go too hard (and blow), and recover at a strong number to hang with the group.

This is not about right and wrong. But perspective. If your training simulates real world situations, you cannot use ERG to simulate the real world. Look at all the transitions in that effort - high/low cadence, sitting/standing. This effort is designed to train power control and transition control. These are skills and you cannot learn them if the machines does them for you. Tom teaches these skills which is one of the many reasons we cannot use ERG.

But if your goal is to pull steady in a group I’m sure ERG is a great tool.

[NArB]

Hint. You can shift for transitions in ERG mode I would for that scenario.

Not saying it is better or worse, I am just not seeing a good case not to. You hit your cadence targets. Boom. Done

[DuncanM23]

That seems like a really specialist scenario. Are you doing those sorts of sessions all year, or only in building up to specific climbing events?
Personally, I don’t do road racing (TTs, UK Hill Climbs, maybe some 'cross), so it’s a complete irrelevance to me.

[ErickVH]

You don’t get to pick your pace in a race. You go as hard as they go until one of you blows up. Knowing how to control your power doesn’t come into it. You spin the pedals as fast as it takes to hold the wheel. If that blows you up c’est la vie. Better luck next time. If it blows them up… off you go.

Power is power. Race craft is race craft. We build power on the trainer and race craft in races.

[mcneese.chad]

@Drew_Friestedt

This is obviously not an argument someone is going to “win”.

Of course not. Thinking it is about “winning” the argument misses of the overall point available.

This is about tools for training and using them in ways to make us faster. There is no single “right” answer for everyone. There are pro’s and con’s to each choice, and acting like one is totally superior to the others is a mistake.

Not everyone needs the same thing due to so many variables they aren’t worth listing. The ideal is to recognize each option for what they do/don’t offer, and consider using them with regard to your own fitness and training needs.

In a perfect world, we would mix and match to gain the best from any and all options. It is very rare in life that doing only one thing is the best answer, and I feel that applies here. ERG has great benefits, but so does Resistance mode. Mix it up to gain from each, and if nothing else, add a little variety into your training.

[graemeo]

The premise here is that we somehow need to simulate race situations in every training session, and if we’re not simulating a race situation during training then we’re not getting the most out of the session.

This is, again, nonsense. We’re training for physiological adaptations. The ability to push watts. Every racer on the planet knows if you want to know how to read a race, decide whether to chase a break, find the optimal point to attack a group… you have to go race. None of that stuff applies in ANY training situation.

If the idea is that there’s some sort of technique to changing into a harder gear or spinning up your cadence in a single gear, um… TD is going to have to come with some sort of evidence if he wants to make those claims because anyone who’s been racing for more than a month can realize that is absolute lunacy.

[STP]

@graemeo

This is, again, nonsense. We’re training for physiological adaptations. The ability to push watts. Every racer on the planet knows if you want to know how to read a race, decide whether to chase a break, find the optimal point to attack a group… you have to go race. None of that stuff applies in ANY training situation.

Not every session but one of the advantages of doing some hard group rides or races on Zwift now and then over the winter as part of your training is it keeps these skills sharp. Zwift has its limits but it does do a pretty good job of simulating the basic physical and mental dynamics of riding in a fast group if you find the right group even though it is totally missing the bike handling aspects.

Sure, you can get in great shape doing 100% Erg mode but if you throw some dynamic riding in there too (Zwift or outside) you are going to be better off come spring.

As for shifting being so simple it needs no practice I don’t know where you are coming from. Sure, it is second nature for most of us but it is still a skill, particularly when riding at the limit, and it does degrade if not practiced under stress. I don’t know about you but after 6 months of not shifting while in my drops at 30 mph, I am not as crisp at finding and hitting that lever as I was in my last race last season.

[graemeo]

@STP

As for shifting being so simple it needs no practice I don’t know where you are coming from. Sure, it is second nature for most of us but it is still a skill, particularly when riding at the limit, and it does degrade if not practiced under stress. I don’t know about you but after 6 months of not shifting while in my drops at 30 mph, I am not as crisp at finding and hitting that lever as I was in my last race last season.

Fair, but a couple fast early season group rides should sort this out. It’s not something you need to keep on top of all winter or risk losing the ability to remember how to do it…

It also isn’t what TD is claiming. He isn’t saying his ‘power control’ makes your fingers better at shifting.

[martinheadon]

@graemeo

It’s not something you need to keep on top of all winter or risk losing the ability to remember how to do it…

So what you’re saying is that it’s just like… riding a bike?

[Ramon_Thompson]

I’m listening to the Danielson podcast episode now and I’m wondering if the “Power Control” thing applies when using a power meter + powermatch. From what I gather, Tom says erg mode makes you have perfect power even when you can’t hold it. But with powermatch (in my experience using powermeter and smart trainer) I have to hold the power or it fluctuates. My graphs aren’t smooth, neither are they wildly fluctuating.
Isn’t this why TR recommends turning off smoothing? So we can see what we’re really doing?

I’m going to try using standard mode tonight to see if there’s any difference (aside from just having to shift gears to manage cadence and power).

[mcneese.chad]

@Ramon_Thompson

From what I gather, Tom says erg mode makes you have perfect power even when you can’t hold it.

• That is entirely untrue. ERG mode is not magic and does not give “perfect power”. It takes time to adjust the resistance to match any change in rider cadence input, and that leads to fluctuation in power output, no different than doing a workout in Resistance.
• ERG takes over the primary duty of setting the power, but it is not perfect and is reactive (not proactive) to the rider input (cadence). So, in order to have the best results with ERG, you need to supply steady cadence input.
• See an example of a steady-state ERG workout that still shows plenty of subtle variation. Roughly 10 minutes from my CycleOps H2. It is NOT perfect, even though I hold a smooth cadence for the majority of the intervals.
  • Note, exclude the low cadence drops that are me shifting in the big ring and doing standing breaks at lower cadence.
• 

@Ramon_Thompson

But with powermatch (in my experience using powermeter and smart trainer) I have to hold the power or it fluctuates. My graphs aren’t smooth, neither are they wildly fluctuating.

• Here is the real info on what PowerMatch really is and does.
• You aren’t really controlling power any differently when using PowerMatch or not.
• You are still responsible for the same input (cadence).
  • The main difference when introducing PowerMatch, is that there is an additional equation running in the background.
  • That calculation identifies the difference between the power meter and smart trainer (a power delta or offset) and uses that known difference to adjust trainer resistance with the goal of setting the power target based on the power meter.

@Ramon_Thompson

Isn’t this why TR recommends turning off smoothing? So we can see what we’re really doing?

• First, understand that the smoothing setting in TR ONLY controls the visibility of the numeric power shown in the “Actual Power” above the “Target Power”.
  • It DOES NOT affect any of the graphing or full data output.
• It is only used to slow down the variability that can be seen in power meters and smart trainers, so people don’t lose their minds trying to hold power, and seeing it bounce around wildly.
• The final graph and power recorded are at the standard interval (1 per second?), so it has no impact on the overall workout. It is only used to sooth our wild minds and the desire to have “steady” output.

[Ramon_Thompson]

That’s how I understand things to work @mcneese.chad , which makes me think that Tom doesn’t really fully understand how TR works…
…or is looking for a way to get attention, which he admits to in the podcast.

[mcneese.chad]

Yup, I agree, he seems to be making this sensational and provocative on purpose. I think he either doesn’t understand the reality of ERG or (more likely) is purposefully slanting his take on it to get to whatever impact or goal he has in mind.

I think he’s quite smart, but setting a view on this topic that is too narrowly focused and misses the full benefits that can be used well.

[graemeo]

It feels like a grift to me… is he trying to drum up interest in a new book?