Threshold workouts at 105%

This is a very useful response @ZackeryWeimer and frankly way more useful than the linked article when it comes to knowing how to best respond to workout surveys.

It seems from your response that it is possible for TR to provide further clarity to users on how AT reacts to different survey responses and what it expects as a response in different scenarios. If that was captured and shared it could make our survey responses more useful in assisting with the correct adaptation of our future workouts.

For example. Take your explanation of “All Out” compared to that in the article. Yours is quite clear and objective, whereas the article’s definition is not.

Could the article be updated with the additional knowledge you have?


I’ll ask again (since your answer did not address my point; maybe I wasn’t clear enough) @ZackeryWeimer : The thing with the struggle survey is that people often expect being dialed down thereafter but don’t know that it’s only if they choose intensity (and maybe training fatigue). And it’s not clear that all other responses keep rising the intensity and burn people out. The UI needs to make that more clear for each struggle option!

Maybe add sth like:

  • intensity / … : we will dial things down to bring you back on track
  • Sleep / nutrition / … : ok, we assume it was just a one off struggle and will progress you even further

Honestly I think even if sleep / nutrition etc. after a struggle you should dial down a bit until one can accomplish a workout without struggle / with confidence. Then ramp back up again.


I (personally) don’t assume that just doing sweet spot work will always increase threshold (or even just doing threshold) . No canned plan can know that. You might just be extending TTE rather than having your FTP go up. There are multiple threads on this forum that say “oh your threshold PL is above a 5.0 so your FTP is probably higher”. There is no way to know that. Ppl extend there FTP to beyond 60 minutes without it increasing.

I’ve done 75 minutes at 90% FTP without my FTP going up at the end of the block.

So scheduling a 105% 2x20 is extra fatigue inducing and not optimal in my opinion.

I have been working on extending TTE for a while. There is no way I could do 2x20 at 105% with an accurately set FTP. I would crash and burn.


are you sure? I’ve got the older 18 weeks of Sweet Spot plan, and there is exactly 1 threshold workout and its 2 x 15-min at 100% ftp, from an ftp established 11 weeks prior. The SS 3 plans favor “pulling up on ftp” by using criss-cross and way-over/SS-under workouts

Where I live people like to train threshold at 105%with shorter intervals and longer sweet spot. I think is a MTB tradition.

Of the few that I have in TP right now:

Gravel Grinder - Hilly include 2x20min at 103% (the day after 4x5min @105%-125%)

Sweet Spot MTB Marathon has 2x20 @ 102% in week 4 and 3x15 @ 103% in week 5

Sweet Spot 4 does have 2x10min @ 100-120% to help plan pacing for a 20min test, but it seems to me like FasCat does make liberal use of suprathreshold intervals

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The workouts in question are the same difficulty or slightly easier than a 2x20 @ FTP according to the workout level ratings. I find the workout levels to be pretty accurate.

Once you cross the Rubicon, you cannot cross back.

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Yes. Week 5 the first session after a recovery week of the Sweet Spot 2 base advanced plan.

2x 20min 105% with 5 minutes recover in Z1,

“Full Gas!!! As hard as you can but pace yourself for a steady effort on both”

The erg file has them at 105%.


Advanced plan? Well that makes more sense.


Thanks, I’m obviously out of date in how I rate things. And sometim3 it’s hard to say which factor is the cause.

Is there a way to get off the chain of 105% threshold workouts and on to 100% and less?

I’m looking at alternates and 5.9 Harlow is 50mins at 100% FTP. Kinda makes me wonder how you have legit threshold workouts above PL 6?


There are lot if you work on TTE a la 2x30min, up to 2x40min (Velika). I am working toward it, with goal to eventually complete Unicorn +2 (1x60min).

Surely this is a race day effort - why would you do that in training on a Monday?

I too can do an hour at FTP, but I’d only do it in a 40km TT or if I was feeling crazy, an Olympic triathlon race.

I’m not saying don’t work on TTE at all.

Seems to me that one would only doing these high PL “threshold” as beneficial training if your FTP is too low and it’s actually a sub threshold workout.


Last year, after injury I did 2 months very low Z2 only (58-62%). Once started raising intensity, everything felt easy and I needed those very long intervals. Yes, it is possible AI FTP estimation was low but it has been always other around. Beside, by RPE + HR, it did felt correct :man_shrugging:

Also, I don’t race, completing 1h at FTP is goal on it’s own :slight_smile:

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No problem!

Those suprathreshold workouts are part of the Half Distance Triathlon Specialty Phase you’re currently on. It looks like you’re on Week 3 right now, so you should have a recovery week next week, followed by the final 4 weeks leading into your race, which does actually move away from those suprathreshold workouts by default.

Threshold workouts above Level 6 are challenging, but athletes do get up there! Those workouts will pop up in different plans depending on athletes’ goals and their own personal Progression Levels. As @svens said, some of those workouts focus on improving TTE, while others mimic attacks via bursts of power mixed into long sustained efforts. We even have more that focus on progressing that suprathreshold power at just above 100% FTP.

@Rizzi and @PotsieA good points on the post-workout surveys – I’ll relay that along to our development team. We’ve been discussing the post-workout surveys a bit internally, so this is useful feedback!


Timely thread. I was feeling a little sorry for myself seeing blackhawk +2 (5.8) on my calendar for thursday. 4x10@105%. But at least Blackhawk has 8 minute rest between intervals. Last week, I struggled on the last couple intervals with 6x8x102% with 4 minute rest (5.4), but was within a few watts of target and figured it was close enough to call it successful. I marked it as “very hard” rather than all out, kind of on the fence since I was technically short on the last couple intervals. I’ll give blackhawk a shot, but 105% for me feels pretty unsustainable. Perfect for manageable over/unders, but I think 10 minutes at a shot is going to feel like I’m digging a vo2max hole (which is should since it’s right at the edge).


Vo2 is not set % of ftp. We do it at 120% because that’s the quickest way to get to vo2.
Any zone can become vo2 if you do it long enough.

Zackery, thanks for chiming in on this.

I’ve noticed there is now an info popup next to the post-ride survey, presumably to explain the meaning behind the red ponses. However, at least on the iPad, there are no additional details.

Is there a plan to add more details on what the different responses should be? Thanks!

@ZackeryWeimer Please push for this, it would be good to have some sort of advice next to the levels shown here, I don’t want hyperlinks but some basic stuff beneath in small print (e.g. 5- All Out “Back pedalled/ Extra rest taken” ) stuff we can relate too… I’m sure that’s easily done, seen many thread’s on this on how others judge them, but I’m sure not everybody has seen them or can remember on the spot.

Not going down that path on how I rate them other than I always mark on the side of caution, as I don’t want to end up in a hole!

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I’ve also been struggling with suprathreshold workouts @105%. They are way harder than over-unders of the same level. But if I mark the former as too intense than the latter ones get decreased in intensity too which I don’t feel I need to do because they are manageable.

I doubt that Stevens +2 should be the same level as for example Tioga. Also within only suprathreshold workouts 102% is for example level 3.5 and 105% is only 4.3. That is way off for sure. If you get a 3% bump in FTP, AI will decrease your threshold PL by more than 0.8.