If its to work threshold, then use a 10:1 or 10:2 work:rest interval and make sure you rest at about 50% FTP. Don’t complicate it. Its all about getting as much time at, or very close to, threshold - 40-60 mins is a good goal.
If you want to do work at LT1 then you need to ride for a LOT longer than15 mins to see any benefit - do it as a serperate session. Long z2 ride with loads of time at LT1 for example, or do a long trainer ride around LT1 for 60-120 mins etc.
Unfortunately, this workout is indoor. I’d like to mimic what I’d do outdoor. To make it a bit more realistic also to race conditions.
At the moment I don’t know my threshold well. If the first interval feels too hard, I have no problem turning it down. I’m estimating it by a 10 minute interval I did by feel (outside), without looking at the head unit. It just felt right, and HR was confirming.
Get 30 minutes of threshold +
Given that I hate the trainer, minimize the pain +
I’m increasing my volume, I don’t want it to be too hard for the next day +
Threshold scattered during the ride is my goto saturday workout. I like 2:30-3h ride with 1 effort in every hour or every 20-30min. Z2 between the efforts. It’s a good workout, as you keep progress it properly- so add time every ride. Also try variations- two efforts, long z2 and 2 effors or vary the lenght of the threshold intervals (for example 15, 10, 15, 20). Those are very entertaining rides and I prefer them to the typical threshold workouts like 3x20 or 4x15.
According to KM you get all the benefits of threshold as important part is TiZ.
Begs the question about what is planned for the next day…
There’s nothing wrong with the workout you described in a vacuum, but how it fits with the overall plan, the goal of the session, and your goals might change the answer. For example, if you’re looking for aerobic adaptation you might have a short rest period. If you’re looking for improved fatigue resistance you might stack the intervals later in the ride. If you’re working muscular endurance what you have is probably fine.
I came across this article and thought about trying one of their lactate clearance workout examples as I just started a build block.
I’m doing 1 VO2max and 1 threshold session per week. In the past I’ve always done steady state threshold intervals but these clearance ones are supposed to work better with less fatigue.
Which one of the 2 would you do paired with a VO2 workout?
Slightly over / slighty under
2min 103-105% followed by 1min 80-90% FTP
Significantly over / under
45s 115-125% FTP followed by 2min15s @ 80-85% FTP
Both have 3x12min blocks. First one seems much harder on paper but I feel it might work better. What do you think?
They definitely do not cause not less fatigue Surges over FTP are way harder than staying just below FTP. More entertainig - for sure.
Do they work better? As always, as wise man said - it depends. Basically you shoud do everything and see what sticks. I mix both type of intervals and done every lactate cleatance workout from Tom Bell’s library. And when comes to clearing lactate, riding more in Z2 and improving mitochondrial density is probably better way to go.
Agree with what @jarsson says. Personally I believe over unders are good for race prep. Do they raise FTP? Maybe? The lactate shuttle you’re working can help you mentally learn to tolerate the acidity and does help train your body to use lactate as fuel, but whether those raise your FTP is open for discussion.
The best way to train the physiology that raises FTP is long duration endurance riding and riding at your threshold, until you’re limited by fractional utilization and need to raise your maximal aerobic capability.
Re: the over unders you choose, I have a strong preference for the high over unders. But if I had a weaker top end, I would start with the low over unders and progress up.
Thanks for the thoughts. I’ve always just done steady threshold intervals and got really good gains out of them, but I though I could try something new so I’ll give them a try.
I definitely do my share of Z2, 85% of my riding this year has been Z2.
My top end is pretty strong compared to my FTP so 45s over just seems kind of short, maybe I’ll try 1 min over 2 min under. Or just go really hard for that 45 seconds.
I prefer the significantly over/unders, and mine are +/- 110% for 30-sec to 1-min on the over with various ratios (1:3, 1:4, 1:7, 1:8). Versus straight threshold, seems to deliver better results at lower recovery cost. Can do a lot of those, week after week during late base.
It’s largely because it takes a SST workout and adds a lactate section that then forces you to clear. Working “at FTP” can be dicey as even a little over will impact your duration dramatically compared to working slightly under which can get you almost all of the same adaptions and do it for longer periods of time.
Through experimentation with this over the last 18mths I have found it far more beneficial to just do threshold at 97% and nail it and go longer than try and flirt with 100% and maybe have the target be off (either due to heat, off-day, slight fatigue, etc.)
Another option I really like in small doses is to do the over at 110% or so, but do 3-4 min hard start then do 4 over unders.
So:
4min at 310W + (4x90s @ 240W + 3x30s at 310W)
E.g. FTP 280
Something like that for two or three sets. The duration of the over/under can change, but generally shorter, higher power overs with longer lower power unders.
These are build/peak type workouts for me… not base, FYI.
@brendanhousler showed these off… the hard start sets I stole from him and it works for me, again in small doses.
I’ve seen good results from starting in low 90s the bottom of threshold, and ratcheting up every 5 minutes or so. And then hang just a little below threshold like you said. Undulations in the road, and wind, will naturally generate small surges above.
And the significantly over unders are pure gold for me. Out on the road it is really easy to adjust the over power, depending on how I feel. Big bang for the buck.
Went pretty good. Did the overs at about 400w which is 125% for me.
Definitely not as easy as I thought, shortened the last interval to 9min.
But way more fun than steady threshold.
Should you reach threshold hr doing these? I barely reached 90% hr.
For progression just add more over-unders?
Depends on the goal of doing them but the O/Us I was describing above I do at 5-minute power (over) and 85% under, and I’m just trying to accrue a lot of time at that 5 min power. I found those to be race/breakaway specific for me.
I messed around with some “hard start” over under that were more like 110% for a few minutes, then 110/85 in similar form to what you described. Those were hard. I didn’t do them long enough or frequently enough to tell if they were any better.
That said, plenty of coaches like @brendanhousler and his coach from the UK talk about training above threshold to push better racing fitness. Whether that’s FTP changes, dunno. Tom Bell uses 105/95 over-unders for FTP development, so you can see there are all kinds of opinions out there, and I think some of it depends on what you’re training for and what adaptation you’re looking for. (And I would not hesitate to say Tom Bell knows more about this stuff than I do!)
My best FTP gains, personally and specifically, came from extensive SST/threshold work followed by VO2max followed by threshold intervals and higher power over-unders for race prep. So after my VO2max block, I was hitting a 2x20+ threshold set (at 95-98%) once and a ~125/85 over under set once each week, along with volume. If I was racing that weekend, I dropped the over/under set… I did that for about five weeks before moving to anaerobic training when my racing hit a peak.
As always, YMMV. As mentioned, some really strong and smart athletes have done a bunch of work like 5x5 at 108% and seen big gains and won Olympic medals doing that… so…
Surges over FTP are way harder than staying just below FTP. More entertainig - for sure.
