Threshold Progression

[WindWarrior]

Right or wrong, one WKO proxy I like to use when evaluating threshold work is time above 85% estimated vo2max. Here is a snapshot from the time in my season where PDC is accurate:

VO2max relative of 45, and ~4.2L/min absolute. That level of work, for my vo2, led to a high level of consistent riding.

First on the list is 32-min ad-hoc pacing effort, felt so good at the end of 8-minutes I didn’t want to stop!

Second one is self explanatory, 30-min at FTP vs 22-min 85%-eVO2max. It was 3 days ago and I was coming off two weeks of low volume (bad reaction to antibiotic) and I was playing it conservative. Also had 2 mid-interval traffic stops that cut into eVO2% time. Here is WKO telling me I should have pushed just a little bit harder:

What’s interesting here is 10-20 minutes is a fairly good minimum effective dose, for me, before moving into a build.

Now lets compare that to an actual build phase (January-March 2017), when I had the same vo2max relative/absolute (absolute vo2max 2% higher at 4.3L/min):

Wow, didn’t realize I had that much on the double century and the two TftT club centuries.

More interesting are these:

• 39:13 “Trainer - 4x8-5 Steady State intervals” which is 32-minutes at threshold with 5-min RBI. That was in the gym with Stages stationary bike. 39 vs 32 minutes - must have done some extra credit intensity.
• 29:18 “5x6/3 - 275/175” time and watts in the name, makes that one easy to figure out! Also in the gym. 29 85%-eVO2max vs 30 minutes interval work. Check.
• 27:02 “Zwift - 3x10-5 climbing repeats” in the gym so 27 minutes of 85%-eVO2max vs 30 minutes threshold intervals. Check.

What’s interesting is that during that 2017 build I piled on the intensity averaging around 82 minutes/week:

and hit 4.2L/min aerobic ceiling, but that much intensity led to inconsistent training.

This year during early base:

hit 4.1L/min aerobic ceiling averaging around 32 minutes/week, its probably a little high because PDC wasn’t properly fed.

One big difference 2022 vs 2017 is that this season I did a LOT of 70-75% steady endurance work, for the same total hours. This time around I’m usually fresh and ready to ride, versus 2017 when I was falling asleep at 8pm. First principles of consistency and volume.

Hope that helps, like I said right or wrong that is one of the ways I evaluate training as a “I’m not a coach but am interested in self-coaching” analytical dude.

[kurt.braeckel]

@WindWarrior

What’s interesting here is 10-20 minutes is a fairly good minimum effective dose, for me, before moving into a build.

This is in line with what TC and Seiler recommend re: TiZ around threshold… 30 minutes being the “sweet spot” for advanced athletes, so us normies might be more in that 20-25 min range if we go by this.

So say I start base at 10hrs, build to 12 before introducing any threshold work… 40 min of threshold intervals (2 sets of 4x5s on two days) across 720min of training gets you at about 95/5 balance of TiZ (1/3). The suggestions I’ve read are polarzation ends up at 90/10 (sessions are 80/20) in your working blocks, so this does seem a reasonable “polarized” approach early in base period.

@Bigpikle

I asked him an indirect question about that on the forum - I came to realise his prescription of 5x5s is not what Seiler etc looked at in the study. Seiler talks about max repeatable by RPE but Trevor is strictly suggesting threshold.

Yes, two distinct interval sets from the “Seiler 4x8” study vs. these threshold intervals. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Seiler 4x8 don’t seem to me to be threshold work, but more MAP-focused (even though they may indeed end up in the Coggan “Threshold” zone in terms of power).

@Bigpikle

worth a quick listen to the more recent podcast when he revisits these 5x5 intervals with the coach that originally started him on them - he’s evolving the approach and talks about removing the HR cap he mentions a lot, and potentially even adopting a hard start approach to maximise HR TiZ.

Thanks for mentioning this. I had listened to this episode but not with the context around the 5x5s. Much more informative the second time around and the hard start at 110% makes a lot of sense to me. Like I said before, I have dabbled with long 110% hard starts (which amount to just being 110% intervals before a short set of O/Us) and thought it was a great workout.

@jz91

Listening to Evoq bike podcasts they seem quite big fans of going above ftp whilst at empirical cycling the opposite is true.

TR’s specialty plans include longer supra threshold workouts.

However my question is, don’t they actually lead to similar vo2 adaptions pushing HR higher and drifting into vo2 zone?

Circling back here, I think the simple answer to whether long suprathreshold intervals push VO2 adaptations is “no”, and honestly I’m not sure that’s what they’re targeting. I think those intervals are more about mental toughness and lactate tolerance than anything. They’re incredibly fatiguing, as well.

A couple of really high end athletes (Kristen Armstrong, Brendan Housler) do encourage suprathreshold intervals. KA talked a long time ago about things like 5x5s at 110%, even though some disagreed. Again, it’s about what you’re training for… in her case, she’d do 20-25 minutes of suprathreshold work and then was able to extend that to 45+ min for Olympic TTs. Do you need to do that if you’re a weekend crit racer? I’d say not, but maybe if you’re looking for some stimulus to break a plateau, bang on.

I think what those people are talking about has to do with riding threshold sets by RPE, and being willing to go a bit harder because the intervals are shorter (rather than 2x20s and such). So it’s a distinction between the Empirical Cycling mindset of extend TiZ predominantly and these types of workouts.

Both agree that overall volume is king.

[WindWarrior]

Per you PM commenting about an open question on a % eVO2max to use in mid-to-late base, I think it might be a question of physiology and wanted to share my “I’m not a coach” thoughts:

@kurt.braeckel

This is in line with what TC and Seiler recommend re: TiZ around threshold… 30 minutes being the “sweet spot” for advanced athletes, so us normies might be more in that 20-25 min range if we go by this.

So 2 threshold workouts a week is a paper target of 60 minutes/week. Now regarding how I look at it and why it might not be the best way for others to view it.

My fractional utilization - threshold as % VO2max - floats around 88-90% early season (base) and drifts down to 84% in season. Early season it is pretty hard for my fractional utilization to go any higher LOL. And threshold HR is about 91% HRmax. Both of these physiology metrics, coupled with some studies, seem to point to the possibility that threshold might be a good VO2 stimulus for my physiology, better than say raising threshold via increases in metabolic fitness (which I might be getting from 8 hours/week of endurance + ‘stuff’). Makes sense, at least to my uneducated eyes. Threshold is already bumping up against the aerobic ceiling.

Now if I had a more normal lower fractional utilization, say in the 78-84% range, it would likely take more intensity than threshold and over/under work to get into weekly 30-90 minutes of high aerobic work. Without having looked at someone in that range, I’d expect more movement in lactate threshold as % vo2max, and if correct, tracking fractional utilization might be better in order to answer “is this training effective?”

With my outlier fractional utilization in mind, here is how it played out for me this season:

Block	Focus (my perspective, not what coach might say)	Ending Frac Util	Ending Absolute VO2max	Ending eFTP
2 months early base	aerobic base, post C19 getting volume/consistency back on track	87%	3.8 L/min	260W
2 months mid base	raise threshold	86%	4.1 L/min	270W
2 months late base	strength/anaerobic endurance, survive allergy season w/o losses	85%	4.2 L/min	270W

For my physiology, that raise threshold block can be viewed as needing a target of ~1 hour/week of >85% eVO2max. That’s my assertion, YMMV, and anyone with a normal fractional utilization might find that to be unhelpful.

Again if I had a naturally high top-end, say a 76% fractional utilization, I’d probably be training and tracking differently. And have a different view of the role of threshold work.

My random uneducated thoughts, FWIW. Clearly I’m just the monkey on the bike, without any formal sport science background. Simply trying to make sense of a season self-coaching vs coached, as I’ve ended up with roughly the same fitness.

Going back to your original question on year-round polarized training, I’m sold on the concept of volume/consistency comprised of mostly endurance + ‘stuff’ and in my mind that fuels slow/long-term increases metabolic fitness. At least for someone with my physiology and training age (6) and chronological age, no need for progressing classic vo2 intervals from 3x3 to 4x4 to 5x5 to …, as it would kill consistency and its likely too much stimulus for my humble vo2max (and kill consistency of resistance training to combat age declines in muscle). Answering the question of ‘what stuff?’ seems like it screams for individualization and that involves both physiology and why you are training.

[kurt.braeckel]

Obviously not a coach because you didn’t say “it depends” in that whole thing!

Are those numbers you presented all off WKO modeling or did you get lactate tested after each period? Just curious. But otherwise largely agree with your thoughts.

As I watched my girls play this afternoon I thought about base planning at higher volume and figure I am going to do a lot of “unstructured structure” once I have the foundation hours down. That is, in a four hour session, find the big hills and tempo/SST my way up them rather than doing any more 2hr trainer sessions at those intensities. Then have some long easy and one or two true threshold interval sessions or so. It will be largely three zone pyramidal… then as I build and want to go HARD, that’s when the 80/20 comes in. All IMO. I suspect this is what a lot of athletes who say they’re polarized all year are actually doing…

[WindWarrior]

“I think it might be a question of physiology” is simply a longer way of saying “It depends” LOL.

WKO on fractional and absolute VO2max. The eFTP is a mix of Garmin, WKO, and WindWarrior Natural Intelligence™ (LOL) estimates from power-to-HR.

Yeah, I agree, a great approach to early base training is to ride your bike a lot with “unstructured structure” as it helps minimize mental stress (save that for later) while still building a foundation for later training.

[kurt.braeckel]

Thanks for sharing - I did listen. Tough to know whether that’s a fantastic plan for, say, a road racer vs. a TTer or IM/long endurance athlete. While the periodization is “reversed” relative to “normal athletes”, it’s really not for IM because it’s still General Training → Race Specific Training for him by going VO2max → Strength Endurance → Economy/“Speed” (specifically he talks about short to long for Ironman).

Good note on his breaks, though… two weeks off and two weeks “fit for fun” before getting them back into their routine. Going VO2max right out of a transition/completely off phase is bananas.

He’s smart talking about the run not being periodized in the same way.

[hubba]

I think I’m failing another threshold block. I don’t know what happened.
I was flying in the end of my VO2 block. Took 2 weeks of recovery and started my threshold block.

I tested 327w as ftp after base from 20min test and did 347w 20min at the end of VO2 block and it felt pretty easy not all out by any means.

However during this block I’m barely able to hold on to 320w during the intervals. Just did 4th workout of the block and had to abort after 20min + 10min intervals my legs just feel dead. Heart rate was in normal.

I’m sleeping fine about 9 hours a night and eating a lot of carbs, even overall volume is pretty light to me sub 13 hours. I’m feeling fine but just don’t have power.
I feel like I lost all the gains from the VO2 block and I’m in pre base season shape.

Here’s my intervals.icu I’m not sure is it public.

Intervals.icu

Any guesses what happened?
Have I caught some bug? I did get 3rd covid vaccine 4 days before this block.

[SCS]

@hubba

Any guesses what happened?

My guess…

@hubba

Took 2 weeks of recovery

Also we could go down the wormhole of using a 20min test for FTP.

[hubba]

During those recovery weeks I rode 6 and 10 hours, I didn’t stop cycling. And I did some mainteinance intensity like 2x10min at threshold and sets of 30/30s.

Point is riding at 320w shouldn’t be this hard for me. I don’t know should I rest or try to push on.

[jarsson]

@hubba

However during this block I’m barely able to hold on to 320w during the intervals. Just did 4th workout of the block and had to abort after 20min + 10min intervals my legs just feel dead. Heart rate was in normal.

As we all know - it depends.
You can be not recovered enough after the block - very probable.

This year, after the block, first threshold workouts were bad. I have needed around 4-6 workouts to come back on track. It was the time when I upped my volume (good old days…) and after 2-3 weeks threshold felt as it should be. Try some o/u - sst with burst and see how they feel. I had a problem with steady threshold (especially 15+ intervals) but o/u felt way better than before vo2 max block.

[WindWarrior]

@hubba

Here’s my intervals.icu I’m not sure is it public.

403 error “You do not have permission to view this Athlete”

[kurt.braeckel]

@hubba

During those recovery weeks I rode 6 and 10 hours, I didn’t stop cycling. And I did some mainteinance intensity like 2x10min at threshold and sets of 30/30s.

Then they weren’t really recovery weeks.

[hubba]

First week was just easy endurance. But I guess I just need more recovery for some reason. Maybe I’ll restart the block in week or two when it gets warmer outside.

[kurt.braeckel]

Maybe. I have needed ten days of zone 1 low zone 2 only after these blocks to feel like I can go again.

Three factors could be in play:

• Underrecovery
• FTP is too high based on 20 min efforts rather than the actual 20 min test protocol (?). Not clear on what you did.
• Some people just take a couple of sessions to get going in threshold. I do. Another of my athletes does. I can struggle to do 2x20 out of the gate in a threshold block, so I start with 3x10 or 3x12. A couple of workouts later I sometimes end up doing 1x45. Just takes a minute to get dialed at threshold… not a big deal if you’re doing threshold work for a couple of months, but can be a hassle if you’re just touching it up for a few weeks.

@hubba

I’m feeling fine but just don’t have power.
I feel like I lost all the gains from the VO2 block and I’m in pre base season shape.

This leads me to believe you’re under recovered. Depending on how long you’ve been training this season, your body might be telling you to shut it down for a week.

[hubba]

Thanks for the reply. I guess it must be underrecovery. Yes for me too it takes a few sessions to get threshold going, but now on 2nd week I feel weaker than the first. I’ve also dropped about a kilo of weight during this block maybe I need even more food.

[anthonylane]

You need to actually rest. The prevalence of under-recovered amateurs is staggering. Ask me how I know.

[Bbt67]

@anthonylane

Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

Just joking, under-recovery is a killer to a training plan.

[kurt.braeckel]

@hubba

I guess it must be underrecovery. Yes for me too it takes a few sessions to get threshold going, but now on 2nd week I feel weaker than the first. I’ve also dropped about a kilo of weight during this block maybe I need even more food.

I’d bet almost anything it’s underrecovery. Lots of markers in what you’re describing…

• Lost power
• Lost weight
• 2nd week worse than the first

It’s really hard to put out big watts when you’re underfed. If you’ve lost a lot of weight, then you haven’t hit your recovery well because you’re underfed. So likely a combination of time and eating adequately to fuel the recovery and subsequent work.

[Bioteknik]

To add, in my experience, quick weight loss isn’t fat loss but glycogen depletion. Better calorie timing can help, but too big of a deficit and you will become depleted no matter what. The old weight training tactic is to have a carb up or cheat day once a week to top off your energy stores.

[kurt.braeckel]

Yep. I weigh myself every day not because I expect to lose or gain weight all the time, but as a way to monitor water retention (and thus indirectly glycogen levels). I’m always right around 157.5, but after long, hard rides I’ll dip down to 155, and if I fuel well and take in my recovery sugar/protein, I’ll see 159. It’s not uncommon at all for me to see a higher bodyweight when I’m mid-training block because I’m keeping glycogen up to fuel the work. If bodyweight is lower, my first assumption is I’m either dehydrated or underfueled, neither of which is a good thing.

Recovery weeks I look at my actual body weight when my sugar intake is “normal”.