I’ve been doing significantly over/unders and I prefer that format over the way too precise format of the ones you posted, because those require a really good estimate of threshold and even then…
Example of significantly over/under here:
I’ve also done less significantly over/under like 1-min at 110% followed by 9-min at 92%. Or 4-min at ~105% (your 20-min field test target) followed by 8-min at 85-90%.
So many ways to suffer/recover. I prefer to make 'em longer and clearly go over threshold.
I think you’re right, it doesn’t really matter, but I prefer the under/over approach and telling my self, as in a TT, one last push. Then again its probably something that I have just got used to as IIRC my old coach always I think gave me over/unders and I could still tell my self in a TT one last push 
Something to think about with O/U in the TR library; all of the main ones 1) spend too much time over compared to the under 2) the unders are not “under” enough. The goal of an O/U is to flood and then give you time to learn to manage during the under.
A good rule of thumb is 1:4 ratio of time over/under. A short 110-15% over that is 30s long will create a good flood, and if you then follow with 2min of 90%
Good example if you want to build yourself is as follows; Note that TR thinks it is a VO2 workout but its very much a good over/under session.
I just did 3x10 min as :45 at 125% (roughly)/ 1:45 at 85%. It was… hard. I won’t go that high again I don’t think. 5 min MMP seems a good target for the high power O/Us, closer to 120% for me right now.
I’ve done four different types of lactate shuttles this season so far playing around. My favorite so far starts with a longish 110% “hard start” over and then follows with 4x over unders. I think it was 110%/85-90%. Got the lactate up early then clear and replenish. Ends up with something like 20 min at 110% over the course of 3 interval sets.
I’ve done some lower power ones where I spent 2 min at 104% and then 1min at 85% like with High North had on their blog… those felt wonderful… but TBH not sure I got quite the lactate production I wanted in those. Could be good earlier in the year, probably not as much in race prep/build.
Anyway, it’s fun to play around and in the end if you’re creating and clearing lactate, that’s the goal.
And you don’t need to do 45min - 1hr worth of these things either.
Hills on a no drop but fast group ride? 
I have the High North workout library as well. Lots of good nuggets in there
I don’t have the library. I think it’s in one of their “articles” as a suggested over under workout tho.
It was ‘sort of’ this that got me started on some O/U recently. I was on a ‘top of z2’ ride on a slightly rolling route and decided i was feeling good, so decided to just smash up a few of the shorter sharper hills until I couldn’t really tolerate the burn any longer - probably 30 secs max but 130-150% FTP, then back into the cruise. It might be my ‘unders’ were too easy to really qualify as an O/U workout but throwing maybe 6-8 of these into a 2.5hr ride felt like it was a reasonable workout and I could feel my quads the rest of the day 
Especially for somebody that uses ‘its an easy/base day’ as an excuse to spin up lots of hills fairly easy
Starting my Threshold progression (Intensive Aerobic per WKO) block this week after doing a 3 week Sweetspot block. Got myself into trouble the last week of the block with a jump of TiZ that was too big so wanted to see what you guys think. Plan is to start at 3x10 and work my way up to 3x20 the last week. All at 97% to start and going by feel.
W1: 3x10, 3x12, 4x10
W2: 3x15, 5x10
W3: 3x18, 3x20
Too slow? Too fast? I thought about adding some over/unders in there, I have some custom ones I made that are 110/90 for 1/2 minutes, starting at 4x9 (so 1/2/1/2/1/2 at 110/90). Not sure if 3 workouts a week is too much, and I’d be better off either just doing the straight intervals or swapping an O/U in for them.
I think you’'ll quickly find out the answer yourself. For me, 2 is plenty and as I recently increased my FTP through early Spring, I’m going for a more gradual progression. YMMV. Good luck.
This.
There’s that age old “best laid plans” quote from mice and men that is very apt here. Too often I (and others in this thread) have laid out plans of X then Y, then Z, and it goes out the window after 2 workouts.
Be OK with that. Listen to your body, go workout by workout and week by week and keep the big picture in mind. You are not one failed workout.
You will quickly learn if you are progressing too fast, and you’ll feel if its too slow as well. Just monitor as you go and don’t stick to a plan if its not working. Reassess where you are, keep in mind the end goal and keep moving forward at a pace that is sustainable.
Came across this the other day which sums it up nicely I think
I like 2 days per week of dedicated threshold workouts. My preference has been to include a steady state workout and an over under workout. I find that’s a nice balance.
snap - been trying that the last couple of weeks as well. Hoping for good things 
This is how I’ve programmed my current aerobic build. 2x long rides, one steady state, one over under. Probably hit a sweet spot workout in there.
Also doing a 16/5 work/recovery day program to fit my race schedule better and help recover from increased volume after my last block fell apart in week 3.
Hoping this is the right thread for a consult on threshold. Sorry if it is not!
I’m going into a build and hoping to lift my stagnant FTP (TTE has gone up a lot). I completed McAdie yesterday. 4x12min with 2 min unders at 95% and 1 min overs at 105%. I feel like it went well. Focus was good. I was powering through. BUT, I logged a solid 20min time with HR above 178bpm. 173bpm is my LTHR and 190bpm my maxHR.
I was not panting hard, but I was definitely pushing oxygen during the overs thru the first 20s of the unders. My heart and lungs felt good, not at all like when power is up at 120-130% FTP and I’m dying for air. The limiter was legs which felt sore if I didn’t keep them spinning.
Is this kind of HR TiZ expected? I have thought that long duration threshold work HR naturally drifts into VO2 max territory but thought I should cross check.
I did some 110%/90% over/unders yesterday - 1m 110%/2m 90% - and did 3x12m. I saw my HR hit 175/176 from a max of 187bpm, after a couple of reps of the overs. Felt entirely appropriate given the numbers I was hitting.
I think its always worth remembering that when working >FTP the results are very individual and its worth just watching the patterns over time and seeing how you respond and looking out for outliers from the norm. You’re right about HR increasing over time due to the vo2 slow component, but I think its rather hard to compare to others when looking at work >FTP.
@bpm Good stuff above from Bigpikle.
In general, when working above threshold, HR tends to continually increase to max (depending on the level of effort, individuality, etc.), whereas below threshold you’ll generally see it level off around or below LTHR depending on the effort. So seeing HR above LTHR during over/under work should not be surprising.
FTP can also change day by day due to fatigue, temperature, etc. When you’re working within 5% on either side, it’s possible you’re actually working entirely above FTP (or below FTP) depending on training load, etc. That’s a (small) part of the reason I’ve come to like higher over/lower under over-unders. I know I’m spurring lactate production and lactate clearance by going down to, say 85-90% FTP on the under, whereas at some of the higher percentages I might be working harder than I intend to on that particular day.
In short, this HR response isn’t really abnormal, but there’s no definite way to put a finger on the “why”.
It’s good to hear of these other experiences/reactions @Bigpikle, @Bbt67 and @kurt.braeckel.
I was not carrying much fatigue, it’s toward the start of a block, and have no illness I’m aware of. Cooling and hydration were fine. Sleep, on the other hand, has not been great this week, maybe that led to more drift. Let’s see how it goes next week … Thanks for the advice.
I’m about to start my threshold block. I was thinking starting from 2x15min and progressing to 3x20min or 2x30min in 3 weeks. 2 threshold workouts per week maybe 3 in the last week.
Last year I just did 2x20min workouts with increasing power during the block. Problem was every time I burned out after 2 weeks. I might have been working above threshold in the end and I was doing too much volume.
But still got a good bump to my 20min power.
Do you progress power during these blocks?
How important is it to ride threshold power, is it bad to over or undershoot a bit?
Do you progress lifts (squats, deadlifts) during these blocks or just do maintenance?
