I spent a while looking at this yesterday as I’ve started adding 1 x o/u session into my threshold work, to give 1 x o/u and 1 x steady 97% (by feel) session per week.
Personally I like to do these using resistence on my Kickr and not ERG, so I avoid the pyramid style and just go for blocks. My first session yesterday was done 2m 90%/1m 110% rather than the usual 95/105% mix see in most of the TR sessions. I have seen quite a bit written by various coaches and sources suggesting these slightly more ‘extreme’ o/u approaches as well as the more tightly focused 95/105% approach, so plan to mix it up more than TR does and more than I see in your plan abaove.
Yesterday I also found they I wasn’t really feeling ‘the burn’ enough, so will be using a couple of adaptions and making custom workouts rather than TR sessions:
include a short 120% ish ‘opener’ at the end of the warmup that gets the lactate going before the first set starts. I think it was the Tailwind article above that suggested that, and it would make sense to me.
start on an ‘over’ and finish on an ‘under’, which none of the TR workouts seem to do.
I saw Chad on a podcast saying it doesn’t make any difference, but I think it means you can get maximum ‘bang’ from a set doing it this way - why start ‘under’ if you’re goal is flooding the muscles with lactate and clearing it, and why finish on a ‘over’ and then go into recovery wattage if you can use the same time to force yourself to clear it close to FTP? It may not make ‘much’ difference but it would seem to make more sense to use the same total time in a better way
Other than that I’m pretty new to a o/u progression so plan to go by feel and see what I can complete and not sweat it too much. Getting 35-50 mins of work done in a session is probably enough for me so I’ll just mix it up to get the progressive TiZ over the block.
FWIW I did 4 sets of 3x (2m 90%/ 1m 110%) with 5m rests as a jumping off point yesterday, and it didn’t feel hard enough, even at my newly increased TR FTP. I didn’t get the ‘burn’ I expected in the overs until the very last few reps. I don’t know if that means I’m maybe starting at a reasonable state of lactate shuttling or if I simply didn’t go hard enough, but it is also what lead me to the 2 tweaks for the next session.
Big unknown for me is how to progress when my goal is basically FTP increase and FR (for long GFs and not racing):
increase length of the ‘overs’?
more reps per set to increase TiZ?
more sets to increase TiZ?
??? does it matter and we shouldn’t sweat the small stuff so much
Would love some thoughts from those with more experience on this as well.
I saw an old podcast episode where Chad said that didnt really make much difference, and maybe it doesnt in the grand scheme of things, but it seems like an easy win to me - an extra 2 mins each set working through the lactate, and maybe 6-10 mins total in a workout
I’ve been doing significantly over/unders and I prefer that format over the way too precise format of the ones you posted, because those require a really good estimate of threshold and even then…
Example of significantly over/under here:
I’ve also done less significantly over/under like 1-min at 110% followed by 9-min at 92%. Or 4-min at ~105% (your 20-min field test target) followed by 8-min at 85-90%.
So many ways to suffer/recover. I prefer to make 'em longer and clearly go over threshold.
I think you’re right, it doesn’t really matter, but I prefer the under/over approach and telling my self, as in a TT, one last push. Then again its probably something that I have just got used to as IIRC my old coach always I think gave me over/unders and I could still tell my self in a TT one last push
Something to think about with O/U in the TR library; all of the main ones 1) spend too much time over compared to the under 2) the unders are not “under” enough. The goal of an O/U is to flood and then give you time to learn to manage during the under.
A good rule of thumb is 1:4 ratio of time over/under. A short 110-15% over that is 30s long will create a good flood, and if you then follow with 2min of 90%
Good example if you want to build yourself is as follows; Note that TR thinks it is a VO2 workout but its very much a good over/under session.
I just did 3x10 min as :45 at 125% (roughly)/ 1:45 at 85%. It was… hard. I won’t go that high again I don’t think. 5 min MMP seems a good target for the high power O/Us, closer to 120% for me right now.
I’ve done four different types of lactate shuttles this season so far playing around. My favorite so far starts with a longish 110% “hard start” over and then follows with 4x over unders. I think it was 110%/85-90%. Got the lactate up early then clear and replenish. Ends up with something like 20 min at 110% over the course of 3 interval sets.
I’ve done some lower power ones where I spent 2 min at 104% and then 1min at 85% like with High North had on their blog… those felt wonderful… but TBH not sure I got quite the lactate production I wanted in those. Could be good earlier in the year, probably not as much in race prep/build.
Anyway, it’s fun to play around and in the end if you’re creating and clearing lactate, that’s the goal.
And you don’t need to do 45min - 1hr worth of these things either.
It was ‘sort of’ this that got me started on some O/U recently. I was on a ‘top of z2’ ride on a slightly rolling route and decided i was feeling good, so decided to just smash up a few of the shorter sharper hills until I couldn’t really tolerate the burn any longer - probably 30 secs max but 130-150% FTP, then back into the cruise. It might be my ‘unders’ were too easy to really qualify as an O/U workout but throwing maybe 6-8 of these into a 2.5hr ride felt like it was a reasonable workout and I could feel my quads the rest of the day Especially for somebody that uses ‘its an easy/base day’ as an excuse to spin up lots of hills fairly easy
Starting my Threshold progression (Intensive Aerobic per WKO) block this week after doing a 3 week Sweetspot block. Got myself into trouble the last week of the block with a jump of TiZ that was too big so wanted to see what you guys think. Plan is to start at 3x10 and work my way up to 3x20 the last week. All at 97% to start and going by feel.
Too slow? Too fast? I thought about adding some over/unders in there, I have some custom ones I made that are 110/90 for 1/2 minutes, starting at 4x9 (so 1/2/1/2/1/2 at 110/90). Not sure if 3 workouts a week is too much, and I’d be better off either just doing the straight intervals or swapping an O/U in for them.
I think you’'ll quickly find out the answer yourself. For me, 2 is plenty and as I recently increased my FTP through early Spring, I’m going for a more gradual progression. YMMV. Good luck.
This.
There’s that age old “best laid plans” quote from mice and men that is very apt here. Too often I (and others in this thread) have laid out plans of X then Y, then Z, and it goes out the window after 2 workouts.
Be OK with that. Listen to your body, go workout by workout and week by week and keep the big picture in mind. You are not one failed workout.
You will quickly learn if you are progressing too fast, and you’ll feel if its too slow as well. Just monitor as you go and don’t stick to a plan if its not working. Reassess where you are, keep in mind the end goal and keep moving forward at a pace that is sustainable.
I like 2 days per week of dedicated threshold workouts. My preference has been to include a steady state workout and an over under workout. I find that’s a nice balance.
This is how I’ve programmed my current aerobic build. 2x long rides, one steady state, one over under. Probably hit a sweet spot workout in there.
Also doing a 16/5 work/recovery day program to fit my race schedule better and help recover from increased volume after my last block fell apart in week 3.
Hoping this is the right thread for a consult on threshold. Sorry if it is not!
I’m going into a build and hoping to lift my stagnant FTP (TTE has gone up a lot). I completed McAdie yesterday. 4x12min with 2 min unders at 95% and 1 min overs at 105%. I feel like it went well. Focus was good. I was powering through. BUT, I logged a solid 20min time with HR above 178bpm. 173bpm is my LTHR and 190bpm my maxHR.
I was not panting hard, but I was definitely pushing oxygen during the overs thru the first 20s of the unders. My heart and lungs felt good, not at all like when power is up at 120-130% FTP and I’m dying for air. The limiter was legs which felt sore if I didn’t keep them spinning.
Is this kind of HR TiZ expected? I have thought that long duration threshold work HR naturally drifts into VO2 max territory but thought I should cross check.
