What I will do is start with a Seiler style 4x8 session and see how that goes. The goal will either be repeatability (4x8 becomes 5x7 or 5x8) or raw power. If the latter, I’ll just ride the 4x8 again but at a higher wattage, hopefully. Not sure which is more optimal for FTP development.
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You can use the workout creator at Trainer Day to make all of these workouts in about 10 seconds.
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Alright, first 4x8 session in the books. Final workout on week 3 of a loading week. I was curious to see what would happen to my FRC after these intervals and it tanked. That’s good!
Side note: FTP currently @ 310, but given 4x8’s were done @ 346, 340, 346, and 353 has me wondering if it’s time to re-test.
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Used to feel the same. Its wasn’t you, and it wasn’t your ftp. it was old TR library and plans in my opinion. Give new ones a shot! The new library and plans with the progression level has made over unders MUCH better on TR. The progression on the old workouts were a full mental and physical commitment that tested my livelihood, manhood, commitment to cycling, … oh my GOD here we go . 
. 
@Aeroiseverything what is your rest for your threshold workouts?
Sorry, a couple of Q’s about this pic for intervals:
- How do you configure the intervals to show NP oppose to avg watts (or you show all there)
- Is this outside? Your power is really smooth given the undulating terrain profile
- Is that bottom graph FRC (or xert MPA)? How did you configure that in intervals for a given ride?
Using intervals.icu, there’s a bunch of settings at the bottom of your ride page that allow you change what is displayed. Message me if you need help,
This was an outdoor ride with the intervals done on mostly flattish terrain, a couple sections are slightly downhill and uphill. When that happens I either shift or adjust cadence/speed in order to maintain power—it’s harder to do this going downhill.
FRC is the bottom green graph
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Hey guys,
How are we for supra-threshold and over and under - would you classify these types of workouts as threshold? - In the sense, would you have standard threshold and O/U or supra-threshold in the same week?
I find TR recommends a lot of supra-threshold work which I really struggle with - particularly those 10min @ 105% - Would I be better of working at 100% but focus on TIZ? I notice there isn’t really those ‘classic’ threshold workout (2x20 @ 100% etc) in my SSBLVII and SPBLV - it’s mostly over-under and supra-threshold work.
I generally don’t fail workouts but I find these supra-threshold workouts really derail my training - but can see that its very beneficial so would like to know how I can best incorporate it into my training plan.
For context I ride MTB - I prefer marathon style - but there is only standard XCO type events where I live - Generally my focus on building a big engine/ FTP as I am new to taking this sport more seriously.
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I think those 105s are or were a Coach Chad mainstay, they were a memorable feature of the ‘old’ TT and Century plans that I followed 2017-19, found they really boosted my fitness.
I recall an old podcast where Chad talked specifically about the 105s, he referenced a particular study or paper - IIRC the key takeaway was, they really work for a 2-3 week block, but then diminishing returns… So I’d consider them as sharpening/taper/‘icing on the cake’ sort of workouts, not bread-and-butter sessions.
If I could do three or more 10min repeats at 105% and feel they were ‘hard’ rather than ‘very hard’, I’d be thinking about either a) entering a race! or b) increasing my FTP by that 5% and starting out a progression at 95-97%ish of new FTP from 3x10, 2x15, 2x20, 3x15, 2x25, 3x20, 4x15, 5x15, 4x20, 3x30… (or whatever). I like to think I’d take a good rest before moving to a) or b) but that’s the hard bit isn’t it…
Anyway I have found for me the ‘shelf-life’ of the sub-threshold work is much, much longer than the supra-threshold work (which I associate more with build or specialty/taper), can do that 95ish% and progress TiZ for weeks on end. Hence SS Base HV plans I suppose.
Training intervals right at 100% FTP seem like the worst of both worlds. Much harder to accumulate those multiple looong intervals to ‘push up’ from below, not quite hard enough for that (short-lived but effective) ‘pull up’ from above training effect. Still fatiguing.
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Used to think so too but last year I did a block of 2x20mins with rising power and it worked really well. Power went up 20w with same hr and rpe, so all the intervals were close to FTP. This was after a heavy VO2 block.
I guess you just have to find what works for you.
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The 6x30/15 workout.
Am I reading that right, you do 8 sets of 6min? That’s a super long workout if there is 6min rest in between. That basically becomes a 2hr workout for vo2?
I understand it the other way around. 6 sets of 8x30/15 (6min). Nevertheless that it still super long. I usually do 3 sets of 8x30/15 and move up to 3 sets 10x30/15.
I just created that in the W Creator and with a good w/up its 1hr 40m, so not quite so bad and probably quite easy to do outdoors if you have the roads.
8 reps of (6x30/15) 6m RBI is what I interpreted it as.
yep - looking at it again I think you’re right. Makes it 1hr 30m then based on that - not too bad I reckon 
Ouch. I just did my first VO2 session and it was only 3 sets of 5x30/30 and a would be 4th set felt impossible.
I can’t find a dedicated thread on Over-Unders so thought I would post in here - might be worth having a dedicated thread?
I plan to base my next 4 week block around these type of work outs having done HVLT > SST > THR > VO2 blocks thus far. After this intended Over-Unders block I will be off to Spain for a training camp in the hills/ mountains.
Here is what I am thinking over the next 4 weeks:
- 2 x workouts per week
- Progresion from PL 5.6 > 8.2
- Mix of stepping/ pryramid format and traditional on/off format
- z2 tacked onto the end of the main workouts
- As much z2 on other days as possible
- Expect a fast group ride will find its way in on Saturday
Planned Progression:
Week 1: Palisade + 2 & Norman Clyde
Week 2: McAdie +3 & Mesachie +5
Week 3: Norman Clyde +2 & McAdie + 5
Week 4: Norman Clyde +4 & Spickard +6
Any thoughts? Has anyone done a dedicated Over-Under block? Should I be taking a more blended training approach?
I haven’t done over-unders in a while, but when I was following some of the SSB plans last year they were some of my favorite workouts - I quite enjoy the feeling of being ‘comfortably uncomfortable’ 
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I spent a while looking at this yesterday as I’ve started adding 1 x o/u session into my threshold work, to give 1 x o/u and 1 x steady 97% (by feel) session per week.
Personally I like to do these using resistence on my Kickr and not ERG, so I avoid the pyramid style and just go for blocks. My first session yesterday was done 2m 90%/1m 110% rather than the usual 95/105% mix see in most of the TR sessions. I have seen quite a bit written by various coaches and sources suggesting these slightly more ‘extreme’ o/u approaches as well as the more tightly focused 95/105% approach, so plan to mix it up more than TR does and more than I see in your plan abaove.
Yesterday I also found they I wasn’t really feeling ‘the burn’ enough, so will be using a couple of adaptions and making custom workouts rather than TR sessions:
-
include a short 120% ish ‘opener’ at the end of the warmup that gets the lactate going before the first set starts. I think it was the Tailwind article above that suggested that, and it would make sense to me.
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start on an ‘over’ and finish on an ‘under’, which none of the TR workouts seem to do.
I saw Chad on a podcast saying it doesn’t make any difference, but I think it means you can get maximum ‘bang’ from a set doing it this way - why start ‘under’ if you’re goal is flooding the muscles with lactate and clearing it, and why finish on a ‘over’ and then go into recovery wattage if you can use the same time to force yourself to clear it close to FTP? It may not make ‘much’ difference but it would seem to make more sense to use the same total time in a better way 
Other than that I’m pretty new to a o/u progression so plan to go by feel and see what I can complete and not sweat it too much. Getting 35-50 mins of work done in a session is probably enough for me so I’ll just mix it up to get the progressive TiZ over the block.
FWIW I did 4 sets of 3x (2m 90%/ 1m 110%) with 5m rests as a jumping off point yesterday, and it didn’t feel hard enough, even at my newly increased TR FTP. I didn’t get the ‘burn’ I expected in the overs until the very last few reps. I don’t know if that means I’m maybe starting at a reasonable state of lactate shuttling or if I simply didn’t go hard enough, but it is also what lead me to the 2 tweaks for the next session.
Big unknown for me is how to progress when my goal is basically FTP increase and FR (for long GFs and not racing):
- increase length of the ‘overs’?
- more reps per set to increase TiZ?
- more sets to increase TiZ?
- ??? does it matter and we shouldn’t sweat the small stuff so much
Would love some thoughts from those with more experience on this as well.
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I noticed that too. Makes more sense to me as well. Could even start over finish over.
I saw an old podcast episode where Chad said that didnt really make much difference, and maybe it doesnt in the grand scheme of things, but it seems like an easy win to me - an extra 2 mins each set working through the lactate, and maybe 6-10 mins total in a workout
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