I’d be really careful about how you approach this if those problems may persist. A plan that gradually increases volume with limited intensity would be my suggestion to give you the best change of making the start line which is the main battle in marathon training.
I’ve no experience with the RW plans or what they contain so can’t comment specifically on those.
Since that marathon I’ve had physio and changed the way I run. They haven’t come back since but I will take it slow building the mileage
Thanks for your reply! I’m aiming for a 3.30. Would you have any suggestions for that?
Hansen or Pfitzinger’s marathon plans is what I would recommend.
The newer Furman Institute plans incorporate cross training and less intensity, a friend of mine had good success coming from small distances to running a 4h15 marathon aged 58 this year.
I’m still cautious with them though as their previous plans seemed to cause injury in a fair few athletes with too much intensity in the plan.
I’m currently in build phase of the half distance LV plan and it calls for a 1:50 run this weekend. I’m 12 weeks out from the race so it seems a little early to run this long. I should probably just trust the process but was hoping for some experienced runners’ thoughts.
I guess it depends on your LSR pace, but it does seem high: I think that would put me at 14 miles… Per the Pfitzinger HM plan, I wouldn’t have been covering that distance until three weeks out.
Hmm, I’ve just checked my calendar, and I don’t see it! I’m not expected to hit 1:50 until the end of speciality, before I taper down. 12 weeks out for me is 90mins. Perhaps there was a mistake in the plan and we added them at different times.
Oh geez, thanks for making me look. Somehow I managed to add mid volume build instead of low. No wonder I’ve been struggling the past few weeks!
Uh oh 
Will you keep it up, or enjoy a little more rest?
Question - how do I record a track session in the calendar?
I planned an hour and set the RPE to 8, but of course in a track session there’s lots of recovery (collapsed, panting) going on.
This was the session (I had no idea what paces to run, just tried not to over do it)
600m jog on the grass
10min skills step overs, high knees, fast feet, strides
2x800 +90s @3:52-3:45
4x400 +90s @01:45
6x200 +60s @00:47
4x100 +30s 00:21 (Strides)
2x100 +30s 00:17 (Sprint)
Am I overthinking this? Probably…
When you upload the runs based on a whole plan, I noticed that the RPE seems to be based on the overall goal, so the RPE 8 sounds pretty good.
Treadmill buying recommendation:
Late to the party on this one but if you are still looking or anyone else is in the future, buy used. Set some alerts up on Kijiji and Facebook marketplace. Expand your search to a decent driving distance and rent a truck if you need to. Can find some really good and excellent quality treadmills for real cheap, people live getting rid of treadmills. Sole is an excellent home brand or look for a commercial model. Quick google search will give you an abundance of reviews. Basically what you’re looking for is a 3.0 + HP motor, incline to 12 or 15 and 12 MPH top speed.
Hi guys, I am just going to cross post from the Ironman thread over here to see if I can get anyones opinion on running over here.
I wanted to see if anyone can give me a bit of insight/advice on improving my run, specifically from people who are doing sub/around 3:30 IM runs or sub 3 open marathon running times.
I have been doing triathlon for around 3 years now, with this year getting much more serious. Some background, I am 26 and do mainly long course/oly races, did my first full ironman last year (IM Canada) and am doing mostly 70.3 races this year with the goal of getting faster before I try to step back into 140.6 races. FYI IM Canada was great but I did it more to “finish” and basically overcooked the ride and the run was a disaster. 38-40C temperatures didn’t help and I overheated, but I am sure there were many other things that could be improved about that. No power meter at the time, no solid training plan, yada yada. Again, I did it to try the distance and when I do it again, I would like to push it hard like I am pushing my 70.3 races this year. I have ran a few marathons before as well (first one was a 3:25 on a hilly course open). The IM Canada marathon had to be walked - I had SEVERE heat exhaustion and the middle 20 kms were a shuffle from potty to potty. That was a 4+ hr run walk.
At the end of last season (fall 2018) I decided to take training much more seriously and bought a Tacx Neo and installed a single sided PM. I followed TR SSBase 1/2 and then worked into the half IM mid volume plan from base to the low volume build and reached half of the specialty phase before my race last weekend.
For reference I followed the SSBI/II rides quite closely, the Tri base and build I tried to hit most of the workouts (key workouts especially). However, I am part of a masters swim group so the swims were with them and the runs were not followed, as I planned to do a full marathon basically just as the Triathlon build plan ended. As such, I followed the base tri phase bike workouts pretty closely but as I got closer to the build phase, I was doing much more running volume and did not stick to the build as close as I would have liked. FYI I did a Frankenstein Hal Higdon plan aiming to hit the key workouts and cut some of the recovery runs for bike. Not much nailing “pace work” (I know this was a mistake) as I wanted to load on volume. I had 1 day a week of hills/speed work and hit the 30-33 km runs (4), basically building up to and hitting the big weekends from the plan. When I say “nailing pace work”, there was no focus on something based on like the Jack Daniels pace calculator or anything like that.
The marathon this year went well but I seem to always be battling calf cramps at around the 30km mark. This year and last year was no exception. I also seem to battle calf cramps on the half iron events but for open halfs they dont seem to be a problem. I ran the marathon this year (more of a flat course) with something like a 3:13:00 time. I cramped at the 30km mark and had to slow down to stretch it out for the next 7km. I was on track to 3:05:00 I think. My legs felt like I was ready (I would have negatively split) but my calfs were unhappy. I did run it a bit quick in the first half but again, if it was not for the calf cramps, I felt good enough to hold the pace and do a slight negative split. I finished with a 4:20/km-4:10/km pace after the calf cramps subsided.
As of right now, the cramps might be from: 1. Update my Orthotics (might need to get higher arch support, I have a collapsed arch), 2. Not enough pace work/doing it too tired (I feel like this could be a reason, as I may have not done enough high pace work, my hill/speed work was done at the end of a 8k run, doing 6-10x500m hill repeats on 5:00-4:00 pace up (usually start slow and negative splitting)). Jack Daniels will hopefully fix this. 3. Taking more salt on - This is one of those mixed feeling ones, as there is a lot of contrasting information on salt. However, I just did a half iron and pushed it very hard and took on extra salt tabs - result was no cramps and I felt much better for the entire thing, so I will be looking to increasing salt intake on all endurance events over say 2 hours (I use tailwind approx 250Cal/hr, so 300x2.5mg salt + around 50-100mg/hr salt on the bike seemed to help a lot)
Whats the whole point of this post? Well I just did a 70.3 last weekend and nailed my first overall podium (3rd overall) with the 2nd fastest bike split, averaging around 210-220 Watts (AVG power was 198, NP was around 210 but I was having dropouts) pushing 39km/hr on a hilly course. FYI my FTP is around 288, my W/KG is 4.1. My run was 1:36:00. The guys ahead of me were top Kona finishers and I matched them on the bike (I got around 2:16:00 (first was a rocket at 2:14:00)) but the run I got spanked (I held 1:36:00, they held sub 1:30:00). I havn’t done an open half this season but I would think I would land in the 1:25:00 range. I did a local 10k and I nailed a 00:37:30 and didn’t taper or anything for it (I did a brick the day before and just trained through it with the idea of getting an idea of my times for it). My swim time was meh, but thats a separate issue and I have an idea of what to do there.
I am realizing that I could really get some good results in both the 70.3 races and 140.6 races, but my running seems to be lagging behind the top guys. I was thinking of trying to target it next year and would love to use some sort of plan/rough training plan to go by. Seeing how Trainerroad had brought me easily from a MOP rider to a top FOP rider in under 8 months and I once thought of myself as a “good” runner, I now am a bit unsure of how to improve my running times to where the top guys are at.
I have heard many good things about Jack Daniels plans/pace calculators. Should I go by Trainerroads plans and use Jack Daniels for the runs? Will that get me to the speed that the top guys are running? I would love to run a 3:30 off in a 140.6. Are there better plans or training ideas that you guys have done to cut 25 minutes off your marathon times while training for triathlon? I feel as though the sub 3 hour marathon times are hard to reach unless I stop cycling and swimming. Right now I am training on around 10-12 hours a week, the “local” 70.3 I did got me in at 4:36. Second was 4:28 and first was 4:18 I believe.
My goal for next year is to do IM Canada 140.6 in penticton (assuming it goes there, wink wink) and my goal is not to Kona qualify, but get as close to the top as I can. If that means I end up qualifying, thats awesome but its not my goal. Biking I am not worried of improving a ton (in 8 months I went from something like 200 FTP to 280 FTP) but my main goal would be to run as close to a 3:30 as I could off the bike. Also my boston time is sub 2:55; I feel like a 3:30 IM run would be a sub 2:55 open time.
TLDR: How did you fast runners/FOP AGers break down your time and reach a 3:30 IM run or sub 3:00 open marathon run? Would using Jack Daniels pace calculator and then following TR runs get me there? Should I break down a Jack Daniels plan? How should I go about doing this for a 140.6 next year? Is this too lofty of a goal? Would just nailing pace and following the TR plan bring me the gains I am looking for? Or do I need to Frankenstein some plan and make it work? FYI I have no coach (am self coached) but I would consider getting a coach next year. I just have too much fun trying to figure it out myself.
Thanks guys!!
FYI: I averaged around 60-70km of running a week during the peak weeks. Yes I know, a lot of people do +100km a week, but with TR workouts and key running workouts I felt like I would have fallen apart had I tried to up my mileage anymore with the TR workouts. FYI I actually focused on improving my bike this year over my run, which seems to have worked out for me. Now I would like to bring the lagging run up.
You should think about doing a run block. Keep 2 swim and bike sessions per week and increase your run mileage for 3 months. I’m not a coach, but that seems to be the advice given around quite frequently. I slowed down once I started doing tris. I’ve run a couple of sub 3 marathons, 35min 10K sub 1:18 half, but those times were when I was strictly a runner averaging 70+ miles per week.
I went from a 3:08 open and a 1:33 70.3 run in 2018 with roughly 25-35mpw. Used a 6 month jack Daniels running plan. 2 months into the plan with 45-50 mpw I knocked 5 minutes off my open half marathon (from 1:28 to 1:23, then did my BQ marathon run in 2:55.
I’ve got Boston training starting after Leadville 100MTB in a few weeks. I’ll likely ramp up my running from 0 to about 60-65mpw. And I want to keep some bike fitness through Boston. I’m sitting at a 4.3w/kg 325ftp. And after Boston do a kona qualifying attempt.
Was your 6 month JD plan on only running? Or did you work it into triathlon training? It sounds like trying to hit a running block in the off season would be highly beneficial. It sounds like you were at a pretty similar position to where I am at.
Thanks @SDooley, this seems to be what I am leaning towards
Yes, only running. I’m a terrible swimmer and only learned to lap swim last January… and after doing a few tris I got bored with the swimming part and wanted to do Boston and Leadville. So I stopped swimming and biking(the biking was forced because in Dallas we got substantial flooding last year which shut down every mtb trail all of the fall/winter)
By all means listen to people who have achieved the levels of performance you’re talking about, but from everything I’ve read and listened to over the years, trying to treat the three sports as individual events is not the way to go. You should think of your run split only in terms of your bike split, and your run training within the context of your bike and swim training. Jack Daniels plans may be great for marathon runners, but a triathlete is a different animal.
Marathon training the same season as Ironman is a well known, oft repeated mistake - I did it too, so a I have no high horse here! 
Good luck though, and great result at the 70.3!
Thanks @JoeX. Looks like the main thing people are saying is if it isn’t broke, dont fix it. I have improved over the last year a lot so I think its prudent to just keep the workouts similar and I will just try to read some of the JD philosophy and implement some of the methods into training, specifically seeing if I can glean some training methods from the 2Q plans. I think I will also try to do some work in the off season utilizing some of the JD plan and then go into IM training with the TR plan and follow the runs from there or maybe insert some JD workouts depending on how I feel the off season goes.
I think the big issue is not over stressing and being consistent. Thanks for the advice!
Yeah, I’m one of those who had always responded better to trying to do all three as good as i can. I just recently had to take two weeks off from running the first two weeks of june, and the extra fatigue from getting my mileage back up to where it was before has made my bike and swim regress slightly. So that run focused block may help in the short term, but will you be able to maintain those fitness gains through full im training? I guess i just like my more predictable outcomes even if they are slow and steady.