I’m in a sweet spot block, and now my power meter broke. I can do these by HR and RPE, my HR is generally pretty predictable. But now I wonder how to do the progression. I had the plan of building up to something like 90min tiz, and then go back to shorter intervals and increase power. However now I won’t know if I’m actually increasing power. Should I just keep in the same HR range and assume I get fitter (ie ride at higher power for same HR)? Wouldn’t it then make sense to keep doing the same length interval? (Is that why people never used to go past 2x20, when everyone was training by HR)?
We know that heart rate can be manipulated by a lot of factors. Hydration, sleep, caffeine, etc. So it’s not always a reliable metric, however, couple it with RPE and I would guess that most people get really close to their power target(s).
Just hold a pace that feels sustainably hard. Confirm that RPE with your heart rate, and send it. I’ve been training on the road for 3 years now w/o power and have gotten fairly good at using RPE as my primary metric for regulating work.
Power is great, but if you don’t currently have it use what you do have and don’t worry about being perfect.
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I’m getting used to this still. I train indoors with power but use RPE outside and my heart rate always seems lower for the applicable effort level outdoors. Guessing this is due to better cooling, difficult to nail down adjusted zones.
Probably better cooling. Its similar to how most people have a slightly higher FTP outside.
I really don’t see many other factors influencing my HR, the only thing is fatigue or when I’m getting ill. Maybe it’s a personal thing, or maybe the pretty moderate climate here in the UK just doesn’t have much an effect.
Still wondering though how to increase power in sweetspot without measuring it? 
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FTP should naturally increase as you extend intervals. You could then work on intensive efforts by doing 2x20 threshold efforts. And again your power should go up. Those are long enough intervals that is your HR is stable/predictable, using HR is just fine.
Here is a nice picture from Tim Cusick’s “Building FTP, TTE, and Stamina Using WKO4” webinar:
Hope that helps.
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Yeah thanks, I watched that too. Its funny how addicted to data you get!
The thing in my mind is, I’d want to try to extend interval length and/or number of intervals (like 2x20, 4x15, 3x20, 2x30 etc. But at some point, I was thinking to go back to 2x20, but at higher power, and then build tiz again. But, without a PM, I don’t know what higher power would be. I don’t think it is higher HR, because if things went well, your ftp should have increased, and the second round of progression would be at similar HR as the first, but at higher power. The doubt in my head obviously is that ftp won’t have increased, and returning to 2x20 simply means less work.
(In reality, I’ll probably get sick of sweetspot before I get to that situation, so its a bit hypothetical…)
2x20 threshold will drive my HR to Lactate Threshold HR (LTHR) by the end of the second interval (assuming short rest between).
Long sweet spot intervals end around 7-9bpm lower than LTHR.
Going by HR is not a problem, I got just as fast before a power meter by using HR zones based on LTHR and progressing sweet spot and threshold out to an hour.
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Started my 2nd cycle of SSB - SusPB this week and decided to do a 60min sustained effort @ 87% today. Had never done this long of an effort because it’s not in any of the planned workouts. Was really surprised at the result. My HR got up to speed in te first couple minutes and stayed pretty much dead flat for the entire 60min at 160 BPM (my max is 184 and LTHR around 173). Looks like all the shorter sustained efforts in the plans have payed off.
I’ll be looking to build this up to max 90% for 120min. I feel like being able to go this hard for a long sustained effort is really valuable. To support this I will also be incorporating efforts like McKinley into my plan, replacing scheduled SST workouts.
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Perfect! Nice job.
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Yeah I was just thinking about that. Squinting at the TSS on the screenshot, I’m guessing that the 3-day progressions are something like 3x20, 3x25, 3x30. The second one is a bit tougher than the first.
Interested to know if you ever do the two weekly workouts on consecutive days or what you put between these two weekly workouts. Thanks!
Taking the advice from this thread, I’m working on extending my SS intervals (@ 90% of FTP). My primary event these days is 70.3 triathlons, so long sustained efforts are my main focus.
As of 3 weeks ago, all my rides are looking like this: warm-up, 1x__min @ 90%, cool-down.
I’m doing these rides 4 times/week (w/no other rides during the week). This week is:
1x60 @ 90% on Tues
1x60 @ 90% on Wed
1x90 @ 90% on Fri
1x60 @ 90% on Sat
I think I’ll cap my mid-week rides at 60 to (max) 75 min @ 90% FTP and continue to work on extending the Fri or Sat ride. I typically do brick runs after all of these rides (w/exception of the longest ride of the week due to available time), which has worked out fine.
So far, I’ve found this approach to be challenging but doable. I’m hoping to work my way up to 1x120 @ 90% of FTP. After that, I’d consider a recovery week and then a Kolie Moore FTP test—and then restart the 1x___min cycle @ 90% of new FTP (starting at 45 or 50 min).
I’m hoping this approach helps me improve my TTE and overcome the FTP plateau I’ve been experiencing for quite a while. As a time-crunched athlete, this 1x___min @ 90% of FTP feels like the best bang for my buck, but I’m certainly open to feedback!
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I’m by no means an expert, but this seems like a bit too much of the same thing to me. You could maybe get better results by adding in some different stimulus
I’d replace 2 of the 60min rides with the following:
- Over/Unders: improving your ability to handle lactate is of great benefit when doing TT style efforts. Unless your TT is dead flat and straight there will be times where you’re going close to or over FTP, such as short uphills, bridges, accelerating out of corners and turns. O/U also have the benefit of raising your FTP, which in turn raises the watts you can put out at 90%.
- A long 3+ hour Z2 ride: long Z2 rides have a significant benefit to your endurance with a limited impact on recovery. In my opinion they are also a nice mental break from constantly chasing power numbers. Discover new areas, enjoy the scenery and chat with your riding buddies.
Every once in a while you could even do a 3 day block to boost your fitness:
Day 1: O/U
Day 2: 60min @ 90%
Day 3: Long Z2
Day 4: Recovery
Day 5: Depending on fatigue go for recovery or 90min @ 90%
Day 6: 90min @ 90% if day 5 was recovery, otherwise go for a Z2 ride.
Day 7: Recovery
Good luck getting to the 120min of continuous work, that’s a great feat to accomplish 
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I’ve experimented with back to back hard days. And I’ve also done weekend rides where two hard days in a row happen. With life stress and work I find it best to have my first weekly workout to be really hard, followed by either an easy day or a slightly less hard day depending on my fatigue.
So for example, yesterday I did a 1h 45min ride that had a block of 4x15 threshold (5 min rest between sets) in the middle. Roughly ~150 TSS. Hard ride. My plan for the following day (today) was to do 75-90 min of Z2, keeping my HR around 135-140 (Max is 193ish).
Now, if I was in a Sweet Spot block, I might have done another Sweet Spot ride, but mixed up interval duration. I wouldn’t repeat the same workout as the prior day. Generally though, it depends on what I’m training for.
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Thank you for your reply. I’ve been experimenting with consecutive hard workouts and the progression discussed in this thread. Mixing up the second consecutive day is much more interesting.
Currently, I’m probably not doing what I think I’m doing (which is building up the area under my power curve) but I seem to enjoy the sensation of finishing two consecutive days workouts with progressively longer/more difficult intervals.
This week’s plan is:
Carillon (2 sets of 2x10m, 1/5 rest)
Tallac ( 3x15m, 5 rest)
Galena -2 (2x20m, 5 rest)
Whorl tomorrow, then Palisade (5x9m O/U) on Friday.
Plan builder created my schedule (for races that hopefully will be next year) but something tells me I should be adding progressively longer intervals next to another hard day. So basically 3 hard days in a row. Should it be 2 hard days, then 1 easy day? I don’t know, but I’m going to try both ways to find the balance point for maximum effect.
Thank you for getting me thinking, I would have given you two thumbs up if I could!
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This “sweet spot progression” is just what I needed. I swear the forum is just as valuable a part of TR as the workouts. My best 20- and 60-minute efforts are now roughly 10-11 watts (5%) better than last year: better endurance rather than bigger power.
I’m going to work my way up to 60 min @ 90%, then try my hand at my first real Build cycle. Very exciting stuff. 
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Great session. Nicely done. 
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Thank you. Had to take an extra minute of rest between intervals (due to pause, not shown in the graph) and another extra minute of rest (backpedaling) about 20 min through the second interval… but I’ll happily take 49/50 and just try to do even better next time.
Thanks to all of you for the advice and guidance!
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Three days in a row sounds great, in theory. It’s an experiment after all.
In my case, my HRV was shot after the third day. My RHR was 10bpm higher than normal. Worst of all, when a rare chance to ride outside came on Sunday my legs were ‘not fresh’. As this week is a rest week, I cast care into the east block headwind and dismantled myself to the tune of 200 or so TSS. I may need two recovery weeks.
The plan is now to do a block of two-in-a-row SS workout with a progression.
Never mind what I said earlier. I’m chomping at the bit to get started -one rest week is more than enough!
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Perhaps even a bit epic? HTFU and all that. In Dec 2017 I was coming off a really big base, joined TR after a three week break from the bike. Of course I immediately loaded SSB-1 HV (turn the volume up to 11 LOL) and that plan has Tue/Wed/Thur sweet spot. Mostly followed the plan, had my best HC climb at the end of week 5. I’m no spring chicken, but born a diesel and it was pretty straightforward. However all that work in the garage caused me to lose interest with indoor training, so I’d chalk it up as a “one and done” experiment 
I’m good with two day blocks, say Tue-Wed and Sat-Sun, but have learned I can get faster doing less hard work and more aerobic endurance work. 
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