I would find a workout that increases tte and ignore the percent of ftp. For example kaweah - 1 is 4x10. I would do that after 3x12. That’s just me.
1 Like
Isn’t there another thread just like this one for threshold? I can’t find it.
Anyway, since WindWarrior/Brian is no longer on the forum, I’ll post one of his favorite screenshots for him.
2 Likes
AT Threshold, assuming it’s set correct? 10 min is the shortest I would go and I would look to get up to 20 pretty quickly. Some of TR’s 5 and 8 and whatever minute workouts are kind of a waste IMO. Like 4x10 is reasonable if you are confident in your FTP and have already done some TTE work. Of course… 2x20 is better. 
4 Likes
Yeah that’s Tim’s example and in the video he specifically says “I wouldn’t give this to someone, this is just an example.” Context matters for this. 5x10 and 6x10? No way (at least not from me!)
If someone is newer to structure and has a short TTE, 3x10 is the absolute shortest I usually go. I think I have a 4x8 in my library but can’t remember the last time I’ve used it, and that would be for someone who is like scared or mentally twisted about threshold. I often start more like 3x12. So if I had to put out a “common progression” that people can then take out of context and use, it’d be:
3x12 - 4x10 - 2x20 - 2x22/3x15ish - 3x16/2x24 - 3x17/2x25 - and on… up to 4x15 → 3x20 and then I like to camp there unless someone needs more time. Occasionally I’ll have someone do like 2x30 or 1x60.
My rule of thumb for threshold is not to exceed 10% TIZ progression and going with longer individual intervals is progression in itself. I like 15+ minutes once someone is good for it.
I stole a “new FTP intro” workout from Kolie a few years ago and people like it. So when someone gets a strong FTP gain, if their TTE is relatively short (which it generally is), that workout is something like:
2x30 as: 3 min at 80% - 3 min at FTP.
Now most of my athletes have done long tempo sets before we’re working FTP, so it’s manageable but that allows them to “see” that big new number and know they can do quite a lot of work at it.
18 Likes
As always, thanks for all you give us, for free 
6 Likes
This is what I have down the road if everything goes as planned.
3x12-4x10-2x20-4x12-3x15-3x20 a big jump the last week.
1 Like
Earlier this year I followed a Threshold progression of:
3x12, 3x15, 2x20, 2x24, 2x28, 1x45, 2x30
…all done at ~97-98% of FTP, ie. being conservative w.r.t. FTP number. After some rest I followed that up with a full-form (KM) FTP test, managing 55mins averaged at my FTP.
I was intending to spend time now following a TR General Base block - my question was really about what PL to begin the Threshold work at bearing in mind my stale PL - but I think I’ve talked myself into doing something akin to the above again instead 
.
Thanks for the input.
3 Likes
Most of the time, an experienced athlete will know when threshold has gone up. So when I test long-form stuff like that is pretty subjective based on workout feedback as well as the data.
When I was training, I rode threshold by feel. That can be tough for people. Many of my clients want/need a directive power, and I will pretty frequently have them ride at what I have pegged their threshold at (so 100%) largely because I am usually somewhat conservative with their FTPs anyway in most cases. I’m not going to give someone 15 extra watts based on an 8 minute effort or something. I’m going to need to see it to believe it in most cases, and I have about five different things I look at when pegging someone’s FTP from data along with subjective feedback. I’ve gotten pretty good at it.
I always tell guys they can fudge around with the numbers a little bit. I believe most of my threshold workouts have a target power range of 95-102%, and I usually put in the description what I want for that day (e.g. 3x15 at 320W), but always, always give the athlete the ability to raise/lower based on how they feel that day. Threshold changes daily based on a host of factors, so you have to allow for that, which is why it’s silly when people say “my FTP is 282.65W”. No it isn’t. It’s 280. Work from there.
Hopefully that answers those questions.
My only quibble with is is the 4x12 given that’s an 8 min jump in TiZ (20%). Now, you reduced the interval time so if 2x20 goes well, you can probably manage it, but that’s the thing that jumps out at me. Why not 3x15 first then 4x12 if you want to go that low again? And then, why not 3x15 or 2x22 → 2x24? 
And yeah, 3x15 → 3x20 is a big jump. If threshold is conservative and you’re working at 95% you can probably get away with it. Ultimately what often happens once you’re around 50 min TiZ, is I program 3x20 and then say: Do 2x20. Get as far into the third as you can without burying yourself.
The next week, I give the same workout, and say “do more than last week” until we hit 3x20 clean through. Usually 2-3 of those freelance 3x20 sessions will get them there.
8 Likes
What happened?
Sorry, poor choice of words that may sound like he fell ill. I’ll change it. He was banned from the forum.
2 Likes
Wonder why, none of his still visible posts are that inflammatory.
5 Likes
He had some things directed at Nate and some of the staff that weren’t well-received, all centered around some of TRs newer features, if I recall. We exchange emails from time to time and he told me several months ago he’d been banned. Basically a little too much criticism of the product and swiping at some of the staff when they called him on it.
4 Likes
Yes, unfortunately, we banned WindWarrior in July 2024 due to repeated violations of our Community Guidelines. His behavior consistently crossed lines we set to keep our community respectful and constructive.
The three guidelines he broke were:
1. Be excellent to each other.
2. Challenge the idea, don’t attack the person.
3. Contribute constructively.
We sent him multiple warnings, clearly explaining how his comments were impacting the community and reiterating our expectations. Unfortunately, despite our attempts to address the issue with him directly, he continued to engage in behavior that created a hostile environment.
To clarify, this decision was not because he was critical of TrainerRoad’s features. We welcome constructive feedback and challenging ideas; however, we do not condone personal attacks or unconstructive comments. Our priority is to ensure that the forum remains a welcoming place for everyone to share and learn, and WindWarrior’s actions ultimately opposed this goal, affecting other members’ experiences.
28 Likes
Earlier this fall I did a post where I had progressed to 4x25min at sweetspot. Unfortunately after that I had a couple of colds, stress etc – that’s how it goes when you’re on parental leave with a one-year-old, I guess! – and I couldn’t progress further, instead going backwards to about 90min TiZ. I made some progress on other areas like a 5min PR of 473W, but the TTE at sweetspot wouldn’t budge. I thought it was probably related to cooling indoors, even with three vacmasters and a dehumidifier my boiler room was just way too hot for extended efforts.
Well, now it’s just a few degrees outside here, almost winter already. I started opening up my garage door a bit like last winter to make the boiler room cooler (around 10°C seems optimal for me). This made riding significantly easier!
Here’s the last SS effort without opening the door – 1x90min, body overheated:
Then last Saturday, coach had planned a 3x35min for me, ended up doing 35+35+42min with about same RPE as that 90min effort. Opening the door really helped!
Today the coach had written 3x45min sweetspot on the plan (sometimes I feel he’s a real mad bloke). Well I couldn’t quite do that, but 45+45+30min was doable.
Now with sweetspot TiZ up to 120min, I think we’ll move to some vo2s in a couple of weeks to get the FTP up. Nothing fancy with this kind of training, but it seems to work wonders with me. Last winter I did the same TiZ but at nearly 15W less power.
6 Likes
Kolie Moore’s latest podcast is about sweet spot, I assume everyone on this thread already knows about it/everything covered in it but just in case that’s not the case, check it out!
5 Likes
Those are some solid sweet spot efforts.
Makes me wonder a what TiZ duration one reaches the point of diminishing returns. Probably where you ended at 2 hours sweetspot for training efforts.
Covered in the podcast! 
1 Like
Opinion: 2-2.5 hours is about it for most people. I don’t believe I have coached anyone beyond 2hrs, personally. Haven’t listened to his podcast yet, but I think Kolie has said 2.5 in the past? Might be wrong. Just 2hr SST workouts are huge metabolic loads, so people doing that should have tremendous endurance already and usually those are going to be higher volume guys and have long training histories. My kind of “default” is 80-90 minutes for lower training age athletes.
Generally speaking, I try to create a big metabolic demand in a single session. I’ve never given a dense block of sweet spot to someone like you’re mentioning (3 consecutive workouts, same overall TiZ), but in theory it could probably work well. I would worry about the fatigue cost at the higher end, and at the lower end (say 3 x 60 min workouts) I would think you’d just make yourself tired without pushing boundaries.
If you’re time crunched, overall time spent at that power is probably OK, but ideally, I want to see some BIG single sets.
My approach when we get into those bigger sets (say 75min +) is to do 1x SST each week and then a second tempo ride that pushes that TiZ envelop even further out (beyond 2 hours). So we’re knocking power back, but still getting a large metabolic demand below threshold. I have found that to be more manageable for my athletes in terms of fatigue.
At the high end, I’ve had riders do about 4.5 hours in that window of 80-90% of FTP in their biggest weeks. Those guys are usually in that 15+ hour overall volume, and everything else is low- to mid-Z2 in weeks like that.
So to answer the question: more is more, the question about whether more is better probably depends on the person and what they can handle.
6 Likes
I would take a crack at the fourth interval in that situation. Or do a 30s break and kill the last 5 min, then full rest, then go for the final 20 and break it up again if needed. Taking backpedal breaks (in erg) or just 30s breaks aren’t going to kill the whole workout.
Also, in big sets like that, get away from the 3 min rest intervals and stretch it to 5 or more if you need it.
I don’t track aerobic decoupling at that kind of power. It’s going to climb and you might see threshold HRs late in workouts like that. Hopefully HR trends down as you get fitter, so if you do a 3x20 one month and cap at 165, then next month after some work, I’d hope to see you at lower HR at the same time, but HR is affected by so many things, it’s not something I worry too much about. In fact, I generally think watching HR during a workout sometimes does more harm than good (i.e. it freaks you out or makes you question what you’re doing for no “real” reason).
I always want people to record it, but I usually don’t want them worrying about it during their sessions. (In fact, I have had a couple people I’ve flat out told to take it off their head unit when training. 
)
3 Likes
Could it also be related to CO2 accumulation with garage door closed? I very rarely see that factor taken into account or discussed.
1 Like