I think they are accurate, just me riding dumb, hitting little climbs and bits of singletrack hard on an otherwise ‘social beginner group ride’.
More on topic to the thread though did 2x20 last night, felt way better in the second interval after shifting down a gear and moving my cadence into the mid to high 80s. Made me feel a little more confident about giving the Kollie Moore FTP test protocol a try in the next week or 2.
Do you repeat such a test week during the season? If so, how often and would you do it as a first week of a new block?
Usually not that full week. We’ll do some testing throughout based on relevant numbers needed, but more often it’s a 5 min test before and after VO2, an FTP or 20 min test a few weeks after VO2/threshold, and then others sprinkled in throughout. Once they’re racing or doing max efforts, you can garner a lot of info based on training/race efforts too.
Usually only do it when the whole PDC needs updating - long layoff, post-injury, coming out of the offseason, etc.
So this isn’t really how FTP works. You should have your FTP set in your training app to correspond with whatever it is physiologically. Artificially inflating it and then hoping your perform to that level is just asking for overtraining. However, if you want to raise your FTP and your current training isn’t pushing it up then you should reconsider your training program.
Idk what ‘Lola’ is or exactly what SS90/50 is but you should certainly be able to do 1x50 SS at your current FTP before you consider bumping it up by any significant amount.
Yeah it’s likely this. When you do a workout that’s 3x your current 6 week average then the system will request a day off.
Yeah those outdoor workouts in that screen shot are pretty dang hard from the looks of it.
But I agree with @kurt.braeckel. You’re way overthinking this. Forget TR AI, Red/green, etc for a moment. How do these workouts FEEL, what does it FEEL like your FTP is, how does your fatigue FEEL? Ultimately the TR AI model doesn’t know you, doesn’t know your physiology, and can only make some educated guesses about different things.
I understand the want to ramp into things slowly but this is a glacial pace. When I come back from the off season I’ll do SS for like 3 weeks and then start a threshold progression. IMO, one of the best things about doing threshold over SS is that each workout is like a little mini FTP test. I KNOW when my FTP has gone up because the same power now feels easy. And I also know when I’m carrying fatigue because the same power either feels harder or I only was able to do 3x15 when last week I could do 4x15.
This is Lola
It was what I had used to assess my FTP last summer, at that point AI FTP was saying my FTP was 235 but I found I was failing threshold workouts and progressing very slowly with the SS90 workouts.
Me failing it terribly
After that test I set my FTP at 215 but over the summer I seemed to get progressively burnt out despite the lower FTP, too much volume and intensity I guess. By late August I stopped racing and structured training and only did commuting, between November and January I was was off the bike completely, then started doing 1 or 2 short Z2 rides but mostly 100 TSS a week or less until mid April. AI FTP kept detecting lower and lower FTPs until it went down to the 170s, then I just set it based off Intervals.icu (also in the 170s).
I guess but find it pretty hard to go from single digit fitness numbers into hard threshold and sweet spot work.
I did make the Kollie Moore FTP test as a custom workout but I think it would be pretty hard on me, given I’m getting red days from far lighter rides.
I would go into the “test” well rested and ignore the noise of red light yellow light. You’re trying to see what your fitness is, if it’s lower than what you expect. At least you have a solid number to train with.
Train with that number for a month and try the “test” again and again. If you’re using TR and doing this long form test, I wouldn’t start with anything less than a 4.5 threshold, or 5.5 sweet spot workout.
I personally enjoy the long form test, it’s basically a workout to me and I get a real objective assessment on what my fitness is.
Don’t overthink it, you’ll have a way better time training than relying on algorithms.
Hmm where did you get that structure for an FTP test? That’s not what he prescribes even for more experienced riders.
I’d take a minute and read his article on the subject and look at his progression of FTP test workouts at the end. They’re all much easier that what you’ve built here.
The article states “Target FTP” but I think since you have had issues with over inflated FTP settings in the past and you feel like you’re still building up I would be a bit conservative with that “Target FTP”
I mean that’s pretty close to what he says he uses in the now-famous TP article.
The different progressions are all there, but they all are basically:
5-10 min below “target” building to target
15-30+ min at target
5-15 min ramping to failure.
His custom one looks most like the beginner level one to me because he has such a short time at target power.
Remember, “target FTP” may be higher than your TR/Zwift/TrainingPeaks/whatever FTP, so you may end up targeting 105 or 107% or whatever. I have to adjust my custom workouts in TrainingPeaks for each individual when they’re testing because I have their FTP set to something in TP, but if we’re testing and I think they can do a different number, I have to manually adjust the power target for the intervals. That’s probably what’s happened here.
There isn’t some magic formula behind Kolie’s testing…
That’s going to give you the bang-on numbers for FTP/TTE. Most people kinda just stop before failure which isn’t that big of a deal if they know how to feel FTP and have other ways to determine a ballpark TTE.
Yeah it’s not too far off but I still think it’s just unnecessarily harder than the prescription. It’s really only like 12 minutes at about threshold before jumping to 105% or harder for a while.
That might work for someone who ‘knows’ they have increased their FTP. But this guy has overtrained (or something similar) like twice in the last year, has recently had their FTP set 20+W higher than it should be, and clearly has a bit of an issue being a slave to the workout targets and not feeling FTP.
So I think for him in particular he should spend more time in that 95-100% range to let the threshold fatigue come to him rather than going and searching for it at 105%.
The 105% isn’t necessarily set in stone though. It’s a manipulation of the TrainerRoad/TrainingPeaks system. That’s why I brought it up. I don’t think he’s targeting a set % of FTP, but rather a number, and that is a valid approach … ** if he feels like he has a decent idea of FTP **. Worst case, if he takes that approach and fails 12 minutes in, he knows that number is too high, and can recalibrate lower. Point being, he needs to do an actual test effort instead of guessing or relying on an algorithm.
Hence why I brought up the general approach of:
Building a workout for this is one way to do it (and you kinda have to as a coach). The other (better) way is to just put your trainer on resistance mode or standard mode (or go on the road) and do the above. We make this stuff too complex.
My guideline when I do tests that are 20+ minutes in length is: Don’t get too aggressive until you’re at least 12 minutes into the real effort.
From what I understood, if it wasn’t at least a 10 watt gain I shouldn’t bother changing it, 105% is only a 8.65 watt gain, so if I can’t hit and hold the 105% or higher then I was thinking I should keep things where they are if not lower it. From what I read in that recommended thread, if you burn out/fail before the end you can get an estimate from your best 20 mins. If I can complete the whole thing I would probably use the best 20 mins which would include 10+ minutes >110% as a new FTP to train with for a few weeks before trying again. I think in the thread they were discussing, manipulating the 100% in TR while completing it but it I need to turn it down, I may as well crash and burn as it will be <10 watt gain.
For this first one the plan would be just to try and complete it, won’t be trying to punch much above the 105-110%
I’d go into it without a set number in mind, You should have a ballpark, and then you ride and feel it out. Again, for many that 12 minute mark is kind of the magical “oh no” point where they know if they’ve bitten off more than they can chew. So be kind to yourself in that regard.
I agree not much point in changing FTP by less than 10W at a time. I still get a kick out of the TR/Zwift test stuff, “My FTP went up 3W!” No, it probably didn’t. 
You’re not saying it explicitly, but it’s implied: don’t do the test in erg mode.
Did my first 18 months of TR in ERG mode, made that switch in like fall of 2023 I think and haven’t used ERG since. I’ve thought about using it for Z2 stuff or recovery rides but also feel like getting away from it has helped my cadence outdoors (maybe better pedal stroke/stability).
YES!
Half poking the bear, but bigger half being serious - what’s the difference between adjusting watt targets in erg mode vs. shifting/adjusting resistance?
I find erg mode to be more finely tunable while leaving cadence selection entirely up to the rider, whereas with resistance mode/shifting, I’ve spent way more mental energy finding the sweet spot of cadence and power output that I’m shooting for. If erg mode works well (especially with power match), I think it’s way superior.
If the guidance against erg mode is actually a guidance against blindly following power targets without adjusting based on feeling/RPE, sure.
Nothing wrong with erg mode if you prefer it. But if you’re not used to holding a power without it it might feel hard at first.
I’ve never used erg so holding a certain power feels easy. I’ve sometimes watched movies / series while doing sweet spot or tempo and I can hit the target within few watts. I just tune in first what that wattage feels like and then hold it and peak at the number every now and then.
Close ratio cassette indoor helps finding the right cadence.
I don’t like erg because the constant pressure messes with my tricky knees. You get some kind of micro break in the pedal stroke with erg turned off that allowed me to continue training when I thought I was just going to have to bin the trainer due to pain. It’s not a conscious effort to relax or coasting or anything…it’s just some form of relief I can’t explain, but it works!
This is the biggest part of it.
The other part that has nothing to do with a trainer is simply learning to pace efforts by feel rather than having something do it for you. There are a lot of trainer types that can do a solid 20 minute effort on the trainer without an issue, but then when left to their own devices outside they absolutely lose their minds because now they have to actually think about execution.
But the mechanics of erg were always a little more overwhelming at threshold+ watts, perhaps a function of trainer interface and software. I had no issues running erg on easier rides, but strongly preferred standard for short intervals and resistance for longer ones.
If you’re listening to Kolie Moore, he advocates against erg largely because people blindly follow prescriptions and don’t tune in to RPE. I know one of his most prominent athletes and coaches uses erg quite a bit; I’m not personally hard up on it for many of my athletes, but for others I will forbid it as much as possible. It just depends on the person and how disciplined they are.
My comment was made with regards to testing FTP and the debate about how to structure the workout regarding single percentage points, time spent at those powers, etc. Blindly following erg mode makes no sense for a test because you’re attempting to meet a predetermined power, not meeting the extent of what you can do. That said, someone feels like erg is just way better for them, the way around this would be to manually adjust the goal percentage target in TR or Zwift.
For workouts, “it depends”. At the end of the day, the goal is to get the work done, and on the trainer, I find much of that relates to motivation and tolerance of the trainer. If you’re someone who needs a ton of distraction on the trainer and just wants to push, erg is great. I used to use erg for my sweetspot workouts, but now I do them as free rides in Zwift.
I judiciously use erg on my Z2 workouts, titrating my power prescriptions to RPE. I have a tendency to get bored during Z2, start doing stuff on my phone, and get lazy with my power. It’s also a great tool for people who struggle to do their recovery rides easy enough.
