But he specifically said at and above threshold. This thread is about sweet spot (meaningfully below threshold). At sweet spot, interval length is nearly meaningless, given that it’s not too short (less than 10-12 minutes). If I had to guess I’d say at sweet spot it’s something like 90% of training benefit from increased TIZ, 10% from increased interval length at the same TIZ. So people generally don’t worry about interval length other than as a tool for increasing TIZ.
I don’t have any studies that I can point to, but I’ve never heard of a good coach that disagrees with the above.
This is something I learned from a Fascat plan that really stuck with me. Prior to that plan, I had always done SS as something like “4x15’ with x minutes rest”. Fascat has rides like “go for a ride and accumulate 125 TSS in the SS zone”. I had no idea how to do that without structure, so I went out for a ride thinking I’d do 4x15 (or whatever) but once I got to the 15 minutes, thought, “I could easily do 5 more minutes” and then 5 more and then 5 more…and before I realized what was happening, I was at 45 minutes wondering if I could make it to 60, and so on. It was really eye opening and the first time I really “understood” the point of doing SS.
Same. I was talking about this earlier today (in the context of having done that 1 × 45) and it’s an intensity that you feel you can really settle into and just push. I think it helps that you’re sufficiently controlled with breathing and effort level that fuelling the effort isn’t a problem either.
Yeah, I’d almost just extend interval length to make it fit into a reasonable workout. You work up to a high enough TTE and the 5-10 min recoveries between 15 minute intervals really add up to some serious time.
Definitely not the same. But IMO I’d probably see that as more of an increase in training volume/intensity overall as opposed to training TTE like you would with extending it within a single workout.
You’re basically describing the old TR high-volume SS base program. And IMO you’re doing a lot of ‘working out’ but not a lot of ‘training’ with that approach.
This is definitely one reason I’ve seen cited as to why most people should switch to threshold training for TTE. At some point it can be impossible to fit in the appropriate length of interval time into a normal weekday workout.
When people are describing the type of workout or session, they are referring to a single continuous workout (ignoring cafe / gas station stops). So you would look at TIZ for the session. It’s often simply categorized based on the primarily targeted zone (endurance/Z2, tempo, threshold, etc).
Some people, especially triathletes, do multiple training sessions per day. In that case each session is evaluated separately for TIZ or category. So one might do a threshold ride in the morning and an endurance ride in the evening. But even if you did sweetspot in the morning for 60 minutes and you felt that was your limit and did an additional 30 minutes in the evening, your TTE would be 60 min, not 90. Your body was able to recover significantly (but not fully) between the two sessions.
When looking at a week, block, or year, that’s another time when people will look at TIZ to see what their overall training zone distribution is. That’s when you add time across workouts. Otherwise you don’t. And usually you’re only adding the time to see total time and percent of total time for each zone or group of zones.
But IMO a lot of people get too caught up in annual training distribution (polarized, pyramidal, etc). Figure out your goals, figure out the fitness that supports those goals (think power profile, not FTP), figure out your strengths and weaknesses relative to that, and do training that addresses those weaknesses or enhances your strengths. Who cares what the distribution is like in the end? You’re after performance results, not pattern matching.
Absolutely there is. But again, to a point. Doing a 60 min single workout vs. 6 ten minute workouts, not the same. BUT total load is a “thing”, and that’s why I reduce one to tempo when things get really long. I’ve got one guy that ends these blocks with 2.5-3hours of tempo and 2hrs of SST in a week (14+ hr total volume). Most of my guys will get to 90min SST and 2hrs tempo in a 10ish hour week. That is a good amount of high-end aerobic work, and dropping one to tempo help preserve your legs and reduce the fatigue incurred.
COULD you do 90 + 2hrs all at SST? Probably. And some people can manage it, I’m sure… but I take the long view - it’s not about what you do any one workout, or one week… it’s about consistency, and I think most people are more likely to throw their bike off a cliff if they’re doing 3 hours of sweet spot every week along with regular riding volume.
Managing overall TiZ for a week is just another version of load management, and frankly it’s more practical than using weekly TSS. I prefer to use TSS as a checksum or big picture look-back, personally, rather than a planning tool.
One thing triathletes do is too much work in general. They compartmentalize the training, so you’ll see them doing 2 threshold swims, a threshold run and a long run, then a threshold ride and a long ride, then a tempo run and another tempo ride, etc. And that’s why you see many of them in their 40s who run like they’re 75 years old!
“But I only did two hard workouts this week!!.. (in each sport).” AND THEN they spread them out throughout the week so they end up doing something hard or really long every single day…
Do you look for a reduce cardiac drift before progressing?
Do you look at your rpe?
Do you just « suck it up »? I could probably start at a long sweetspot interval and just suffer everytime. I’m not sure it would not be counterproductive for the long term.
I tend to look at my cardiac drift ( even more for threshold workout). My idea is that if my hr goes beyond some level, it’s not sweetspot anymore (or threshold). But then the result is that i usually do reducing intervals, like 25min, 20 min, 15 min (in the same workout), as my heartrate rises faster when i’m getting tired.
At the risk of holding myself up as some sort of exemplar (not my intent!) here’s my most recent 1 × 45 at 90% FTP and a reasonably constant cadence (btwn 90rpm amd 92rpm).
I think this is what you want your HR to look like. Just a very marginal drift. If it’s running away faster than this, you’re probably too close to threshold - or your cooling is no good indoors.
Notionally progress duration every week, I usually structure it for most people. Others I can say things like “do more than last time”. The reality is that cardiac drift happens and isn’t a great indicator because it can change day to day both the baseline and how much it moves for a bunch of reasons. Normally, yes it should be a marginal drift… but eventually it’s going to drift and that’s OK. You’re trying to push things, so stopping when it gets hard kind of defeats the purpose.
All of this assumes threshold is well-known and you’re working substantially below that. The thumbrule is no more than 10% progression for threshold intervals… so extrapolate from there for sweet spot… you can push a bit more.
Does it matter? At SST especially, not really. But no, I don’t typically just progress things by 10% on interval length. I try to keep things simple for people who ride outside. You always want to be doing longer intervals below, and even AT threshold.
AT threshold, once we get to 20 min intervals, I usually go 2-3 x 20. Some people will do 2x30 or 1x30 + 1x20+. Then the guidance is “do more than last time” so you end up with some 2x20 +1x12 type stuff. Once you’re up around 50+ min at threshold you are pushing where most people can tolerate in a single workout, especially on the trainer. At SST, 3x20 → 3x24 or 25 → 3x30 is not an uncommon progression for experienced athletes. For people who’ve never gone beyond 60 min, I might go 3x20 → 3x24 → 4x20 → 3x30.
Do people have the time and inclination to follow these things so closely?
I usually start in winter with 2x15 and work up from there, but once I get to more than 2x20, i.e. more than 40 minute TiZ, I just stick to 1x and extend by 5 minutes every week if I feel I can handle it.
But once summer hits and I ride outdoors, you do what you can. Who here has road where you can go 30+ minutes without natural interruptions anyway?
I move to climb repeats when I start training outdoors and increase repeats until I hit the time limit for the day after work. Tends to be 8x with average 13 minutes per climb (I do alternating sides 11.5 and 14.5). Not ideal but the off period is pretty short, too, just down the climb. Also trains climbing which is what I do in the summer.
The time is the big reason I usually switch to Threshold intervals pretty quickly. It’s just too hard to fit in like 3x30 SS or more very regularly which is what you’d need after a couple blocks of extending TTE.
Yeah that can be tough. If it’s just a stop sign or two that you know you just have to slow down and maybe wait for a car or two then that’s not a big deal. But anything more like lights and other longer stops are a no go. My two closer roads for long things like this were 1) a ~10 min road with a stop sign in the middle that I would just go up and back on over and over OR 2) a ~4 min park road that I just lapped over and over. Not the most exciting rides to do 45 miles on a 1.5 mile loop but it’s better than the trainer.
Yeah not super ideal for SS intervals. Could you back up from the climb and make them closer to 20min? But if that’s what you’ve got then it’s what you’ve got. Maybe consider doing them at threshold instead.
I write workouts for people if they have good roads. For example, around here we have a straight shot on the coast where you can do 18-22-20-17 (wind and turns and such) so I have a custom workout I give some local athletes where they’re basically doing 80min TIZ by doing two out-and-backs from the safe start/stop points on that stretch. They take 3-5 min noodling around at the ends and go.
Otherwise, the other way I do workouts like this is to tell people to go find a 3 hour route, preferably with some long climbs or at least long non-stop stretches, and then go aim for XX amount of time at 90% for the ride, with the goal being in long stretches. I used to do a loop out here that was about 60 miles round trip out my door, with 8000ft EG, and it would take me 3.5 hours. If I climbed relatively hard, I would get 80-90min in zone, with the first bit being essentially 55 minutes out of 60 in zone (one quick descent on a LONG climb), and then a bunch of shorter rollers that added up over the course of the ride. The good part was, all the climbing was in the middle 2hours of the ride, so you got a solid warmup and noodle home cooldown.
Really effective training. If you have that kind of access, use it by all means.
But many people don’t have that kind of time to make these rides work, or they don’t have safe roads or non-stop roads or prolonged climbs or roads without a billion cars… so these 90-120min SST workouts on the trainer are awesome too.
