@kurt.braeckel and all, what are your thoughts on Threshold Workout placement within an SS Block/Progression.
I’m coming to the end of my 2021 season without a real peak or finale due to having my A-Race rug pulled out from under me two days before.
I’m going pretty good at Threshold and don’t want to lose it, but am very keen to roll into my/build another SS Progression for 2022.
My current plan is to follow SSBHV (I’ve only ever done MV in the past) with replacing the Friday session with my “progression” workout. I was thinking about replacing the Monday Workout the whole way through with a standard sort of 3x15-20min at 100@%… Thoughts?
It’d end up looking something like:
M - Threshold
T - Easy/Recovery 60min (will often be skipped this year)
W - SS
Th - Easy/Recovery
F - SS Progression out to 120+min
Sa - either low level SS or 60min endurance
Yes. Also interested in and wondering about LT1 and DFA-1a stuff and so on but probably overthinking too much as I often do . The simple answer and what it always boils down to is:
Probably exact intensity doesn’t matter too much…just do as much volume as possible (within individual constrains) without compromising recovery and the intense sessions. If possible prefer volume over intensity.
(I’m not mentally hard enough for many low intensity sessions > 2 hours… I just accept leaving something on the table here… )
Almost certainly. I did it because the test is simple to make in TR or TP, easy to execute with free software and an existing Polar H10… but it didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know. After some training, if I think I’ve moved LT1, I might test it again to see. But I kind of file it under the same heading as actual lactate and VO2max testing for me: almost certainly unnecessary!
I’ve been recording HRV data every morning for two months and seeing about the same thing… but I watch a lot of my friends with Whoops (ha!) and how they’re celebrating recovery scores and such… marketing is an amazing thing!
Feedback provided with the caveat that I know nothing about you and your riding history, etc.
The proposed schedule you have there just looks like too much intensity to be sustained for any meaningful period. I wouldn’t prescribe that to anyone, personally, and there’s no way I could accomplish it.
Two things here: I think three long SST workouts per week is probably too much for most people. Two is plenty. Adding threshold to that is probably going to incur too much fatigue.
If you want to train FTP/threshold, then train it! I don’t know where your goals lie and what you’re hoping to accomplish with the SST progression, but IMO less is probably more. Be aggressive with your progression, and when you’ve gotten out to where you want to get to, TTE is pushed out to the right, move on to an FTP build/VO2max/whatever supports your goal.
My advice:
Be aggressive with your progression. Fewer workouts to get to whatever your goal is.
For most people, no more than 2 SST workouts per week. Add a tempo ride in there if you want for your third “intense” workout.
Add Z2 volume…
Once you’re up on Z2 volume, raise the intensity of your Z2 rides to .7 or a little above.
Then add tempo intervals sparingly to your long rides.
I’ve had good experience with that kind of aerobic work in lieu of tons of sweet spot. Look, I love(d?) TrainerRoad for what it is and admire Nate and the whole team… but I’d stay the heck away from SSBHV, personally, and I wouldn’t add threshold to it.
That’s my $0.02. (Again, remember I don’t know your riding background, etc.)
There no problem doing that - to sharpen you for an upcoming Threshold block etc. Or the reverse, including some SST in a Threshold block is also fine - less intensity and more TiZ is rarely a bad thing. Both are basically training the same thing.
I agree your week looks too intense. Saturday’s short SST would be the workout I’d cut from your schedule - make it always Z2. If you’re working up to 120 mins SST on Fri, then a shorter/maintenance(?) workout Sat probably won’t do a ton for you other than build fatigue IMO.
What do you think of my progression plan for the 2 weeks now? Last week I did a 3x12min FTP (95-97-100%) and 1x SST 90% 60min.
This week I am plannig 3x15min FTP and 2x35 SST and next week 4x12 and 1x75 SST? Rest filled up with Z2 in total for 14-15hrs. Is this a good approach? Should I be more agressive in the progression for SST? Is 2 intensive sessions enough? I think so, because with the total volume it would be enough riding I guess?
The threshold progression is more aggressive than the SST one. I would reverse that, personally.
If you’re at 60 min and managing, I would go 75 then 90 min TiZ. If you are working at proper FTP and 90%, 2x30 - 3x25 - 3x30 should be manageable if you’ve done this type of work before.
The threshold is going to be harder to do in big jumps, so watch that as @kurt.braeckel pointed out.
On the SST progression (and to a lesser amount FTP) once you get past 20min intervals I find that MENTALLY it gets slightly easier to increase the jumps in progression
ex. you might go 4x10, 3x15, 3x18, 3x20, 3x25 for FTP, but then you end up going 3x30. And you’re all of a sudden jumping in 5min increments rather than 2-3min.
While part of that is physical adaption, a huge part is the mental strength of KNOWING you can do longer intervals. This is especially true for the SST ones. I jumped from 3x25, 3x30, 3x40 over three consecutive sundays.
Thx for the advice. I did a 3x25 SST. Was harder than the 1x60min but was more fatigued before. Did An aerotune 4/12min test last wednesday and that have some muscle fatigue in the legs. I am increasing my weekly volume to 14-15hours also so I have the feeling that one FTP and one SST per week is enough with those hours (Z2 are other sessions).
I was about 10-12hrs in the weeks before? In 2021 14 weeks more then 14hours. So, I am used to it, but not in a chronic way. CTL mostly between 80-95, so a higher load is possible. (565hours in 2021). But want to try if I can push little more and try to average 14-15 hours, next week I want 16hours. But maybe Z2 only? But I am in extensive block FTP/SST and want to to do 2 weekly sessions FTP, SST. So it is making the decision of FTP/SST with Z2 or Z2 only or FTP/SST focus…
Training…If it was as a simple as laying down
People dont realize the amount of an increase 14hrs vs. 10-12 (lets say 11)hrs is. Thats 30% more weekly volume.
16hrs vs the same 11hrs is 45% more volume a week. That’s not a trivial amount.
It’s also an amount where you need to start making sure you’re doing the little things right or you risk very quickly running yourself into a real hole.
People talk about overtraining. No one is getting overtrained on sub 10hrs a week. You start getting up into the 16-20hr range and its a different story and something you really have to watch.
Planning to move my volume up significantly as well over the next few weeks, once outside riding allows (been skiing in the mountains 1-2 days each weekend over the winter, hoping some volume transfers).
Haven’t quite decided how I’ll play it, but might just do one SST and one FTP workout during the week (filled with Z2 where I find the time) and some longer rides on the weekend with efforts based on terrain - I primarily ride MTB, so there will be enough climbs. We’ll see how that goes
I am going from 10+ to 12-13/week starting this week.
How? Adding nothing but zone 2 time, reducing anything above that to two workouts per week to start, and one full-on recovery ride of 1 hr. So 3hr rides 3x/wk which is a manageable duration for me: not crazy long. Two 90min interval workouts (which are really about 30-40 working min, rest Z1/2).
As I want to push volume up, first step will be lengthening one ride to 3:30-4hrs, then another. Keep it at two interval sessions.
If you’re doing a big push of volume addition, it needs to come from Zone 2 and keep the intervals relatively light overall. Push volume up, then add intensity as you’re able to manage. Be conservative.
Yip, I know. As @kurt.braeckel also said, I try to increase it with just Z2. I track my CTL and I am still not at the level as I was on my top in 2021.
Last week:
M: 2h15 Z2 0.69IF
T: Rest
W: 1h45 Aerotune test 4/12min all-out
T: 2h00 Commute Z2 IF 0.67
2h00 Commute Z2 IF 0.72
F: 1h45 3x25 SST IF 86
S: 1h45 Z2 IF 0.68
S 2h30 Z2 IF 0.71
And the week before was something similar (30min more). with one SST and one FTP session, one rest day.
I find that the overall structure of the intervals themselves dont change (same TiZ per workout, same overall TiZ per week), just the amount of z2 around it.
Yep. It’s just gonna make that Zone 2 bar in my Time In Zone chart go a lot higher. That’s the way I went from 8 to 10 last year.
As I increase, I want to get a weekly ride out to four hours, so I might back one down to two hours to start with, essentially 2-3-4 hr Z2 rides, a recovery ride, and two interval sessions. That’s a 13 hr week. This week I am doing 3-3-3. Feeling things out.
But if you’re doing 2x4h z2 on the weekend. Will a 2 hours z2 ride during the week have any benefit ? Or is it better to do a 90 minute SS or tempo workout ? Decrease the time during the week, but adding a bit more intensity.
@SaSha1103 good question I think. Is the extra volume good as an extra stimulans for aerobic improvements? Let’s say, maybe for me it is a better to do 10-12hours a week with 2 interval sessions (ftp/sst for me) instead of 14-15hours a week (with extra Z2 work). Is the extra time in Z2 of a greater stimulans? Or just extra fatigue with less good interval sessions as a result? Maybe you have to look at long term improvement?
I track my CTL, TSB, so I don’t overdue the extra volume.
Edit: here is my planned 2 weeks (4 week block) before recovery week
. The simple answer and what it always boils down to is:
