Sweat Tests: HDrop vs. Precision Fuel and Hydration

I can say anecdotally my HDrop is all over the place and there’s definitely day-to-day variation. I also don’t trust it whatsoever for anything but sodium concentration - definitely not fluid loss. I’ve sort of learned what an outlier is, get rid of those, average the rest and it agrees with the Precision Fuel test I’ve done.

Sodium Sweat Concentration will also be different at different times of the year. Heat Training and adaptation is supposed to drive sodium concentration down and sweat rate up, so you would expect different readings at different times of the year.

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So far, I have been testing the hdrop along with nix and flowbio over the last week, and comparing them vs precision hydration sweat test. I do the sweat collection with a patch (I think they are tega derm or something like that) and then exercise (so not using the pilocarpine sedentary setting). The results are quite fascinating, my sweat sodium concentration is changing quite a lot depending on the intensity I put on the activity, I also found this paper from precision hydration: https://journals.northumbria.ac.uk/index.php/gjsscmr/article/view/1535

I have already asked precision hydration for an explanation, but crickets so far. So, all of that to say that I think that the day-to-day variability is normal since my sweat rate and sodium conc. are changing based on multiple factors. I think the precision hydration test gives you a ballpark (pilocarpine one), but at least the hdrop is being consistently accurate (within 10% error) compared to both my fluid loss and sodium loss. Another user reached out about my testing and said that his hdrop results were not good a year ago but that they released a couple updates and fixed the data for fluid loss with a calibration. I haven’t used yet since it is been so far good for me.

Wouldn’t being “all over the place” be a good thing here? Maybe trying to keep intensity/weather/diet the same across a couple activities brings up the same result? (that has been my case). Curious to see how it behaves on your side @BCM

On the other hand, nix failed patches suck, and flowbio seems to have bad reliability (different results under exact same conditions). Well, all of this is anecdotically for me, I have only done 5 tests so far.

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Wait, isn’t he a doctor?

My guess is the other user was maybe highlighting a current problem with people who are say a Chiropractor who go on social media and use their title of Dr to sell snake oil supplements and things of that nature. Or even MDs giving nutrition advice they are not actually trained on.

In this case not knowing his exact background in terms of sweat studies, his degree would at least be inline with this topic.

Reminds me of my parents fathers speaking on the phone for the first time.

Hi Mr Jones this is Mr Smith is my son there?
Dr Jones!
Oh I’m sorry he neglected to tell me you were in medicine.
My Phd is in Chemistry.
Oh sorry Mr Jones is my son there?

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I should have clarified, I was referring to MD when saying Dr here:

I get the point of the use of “Dr.”… But having Dr on a nickname and not being an MD was a bit misleading to me, not gonna lie. I thought he was an MD.

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I know what you mean re. the MD/PhD honorific. However, in this instance - and my wife is an MD - I’d wager Alex’s knowledge is better and deeper than the vast majority of MDs.

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Yes, and I don’t necessarily trust someone just because they’re an MD either.

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He does not have any research or papers related to this topic that I could find to be making these claims, and I got the feeling that there are economic benefits behind (an app/yt channel) from what I saw searching online… the friend I mentioned above (related to this topic and quoted) is a board certified sports medicine physician with specialty in CKD, and has done previous sweat testing with lab machine (idk which machines he used). I do not trust what I see online these days…

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I wrote most of the below a couple (few?) weeks ago and never pressed send because I didn’t edit it and had concerns people wouldn’t receive it well. Hope you enjoy the unedited honesty (see: autism).

EDIT: Welp… I was right, it was not received well, or the automated filters caught it as spam so here’s the nuts and bolts only. Being on the spectrum is a recipe for getting banned and having posts blocked on forums until the mods realize you’re actually just an honest-to-a-socially-awkward-level nerd.

My incentives: The only message I am incented to sell is “you will benefit from personalized nutrition recommendations.” I have no supplement company affiliations and never will.

My very forum-public pre-app, pre-youtube, history online should reveal that my stances have remained unchanged and unswayed by profit motive. And will always stalwartly stand in favor of saving people money, even if it causes me literal bankruptcy, which it may.

Here’s an old post that spells out my mindset on a few related things. :slight_smile: I share your skepticism deeply.

Regarding my experience with sweat tests: first, yes, my education certainly covered them, haha. Ironically, while I have never myself executed a sweat test nor actually seen one performed, I have held the technology/devices in my hands, studied the engineering and patents of the devices, understand how they are used, performed, analyzed, etc to the degree that I have been consulted by companies designing wearable sweat and biomarker measurement devices. I’ve read most of the scientific literature ever written on the topic.

Just for clarity so the above doesn’t sound like promotion: I don’t plan to ever make or sell or profit from such a device’s sales or usage and have no affiliation with any such company and never have.

My wife, an RD CSSD, has been party to hundreds of sweat tests in the field (maybe thousands) and specializes in endurance sports as a pro triathlete and pro MTB’er.

Hope that’s a helpful and very transparent light on some of my background!

Devil’s advocate tidbit:

(maybe would be better to add this bit to the Unpopular Cycling Opinions thread)

Some of the folks with the most published studies are absolutely some of the most biased folks I know. I’ll spare you the diatribe, but suffice it to say: publications mean utterly nothing in terms of intellect and lack of bias on a subject.

A much better ‘tell’ for lack of bias is the absence of specific narrow affiliations that benefit from certain narrow messages being peddled. I’m biting my tongue to avoid naming names of most biased researchers of all time in this area, but a few of the most prolific have gone on to shape what our industry thinks and does about fueling after deeply affiliating with certain products having certain formulations, if you know what I’m saying!

One researcher who I find to be the opposite of that, so far, is @timpodlogar. AFAIK, he resists becoming financially involved with any nutrition companies so that he can remain neutral for the people, and I would imagine he’s had many offers or would if he opened the door to it.

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Hi Alex and thanks as always for your transparency in the responses! I’ve known most of your story but still read the full message and appreciate the mission of Saturday :slight_smile:

I similarly really appreciate Tim Podlogar and his research and openness in sharing findings, but he is deeply involved with NDURANZ (https://nduranz.com/pages/about-dr-tim-podlogar). To be fair, their products are pretty cheap (especially through resellers like 4endurance, which I believe has some connection to NDURANZ) compared to all the name brands and I’ve not had any gut issues with them either. They’re my go to brand for gels etc, but following your logic he is biased as well.

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He’s on our website too, but we pay him nothing because he wouldn’t take my offers. “Integrity” seems to rank very highly among his personal characteristics. It wouldn’t surprise me if his engagement with Nduranz is also uncompensated. He has been remarkably generous with his time and expertise for Saturday, although he’s gained literally nothing from it, as far as I can tell.

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Just finished up some testing with these devices fyi:

Device Trials with sweat-loss data Avg sweat-loss accuracy (%) Trials with Na⁺ data Avg Na⁺ accuracy (%)
HDrop 10 91.7 10 92.8
FlowBio 10 68.4 10 54.6
Nix 8 69.3 8 75.6

Very surprised with the HDrop and reliability under the same conditions - (same intensity, all indoor, temp and humidity controlled). Been playing with it outside with different intensities and weather and there was definitely variation, but I think that comes into play with physiology itself. Recent studies are showcasing that sweat sodium excretion is not fixed, and it is more a ~400mg/L range depending on power/hr/intensity/weather…. So I guess more to come!

Full data table here
Flowbios Flowpatch - Sweat rate and sodium loss sensor - Equipment - TrainerRoad

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