Should I have waited?

[IceMan84]

@Pbase

I actually don’t agree with this. I know we’re all different, but for me personally, the 1st hard set is usually the hardest of the workout. If I’m suffering on the 1st set, I will go into the 2nd set to see if it’s as bad before I make any adjustments. For whatever reason, the 2nd set is almost always easier for me than the 1st.

This is how it is for me too. When I did De Langle I got through the first interval and felt it was going to be almost impossible to do the rest! lol! I got through each of the rest though except the very last one. I had to bring down the intensity to complete it.

[IceMan84]

@Wirt

2 things I notice on long group rides.

• Nobody has the discipline, lack of fragile ego or attention to go endurance pace. There’s always someone showing off and rest trying to match and even if it’s not a big contrast, even 10 watts over what you normally ride means you can overcook over several hours once those excess watts start adding up.
• You chat, you have fun, you enjoy yourself and you forget to eat & drink enough. and most people don’t eat enough already cause they are trying to diet on the bike, think carbs are evil, or they have some special magical body that doesn’t require fueling to perform. You said you focus on nutrition so you might be in the eating less than you think category. Believe me it’s possible. Month ago I almost doubled my carb intake. I pop 2 clif bloks every 20 minutes. That’s 72 grams of carbs per hour. I finish 3 packs in 4 hours. On top of that, I pause once at a gas station mid ride to eat another source of fuel. Could be anything that had a little more substance to it than pure sugar cubes. My choice is a pack of nutter butter and a can of nitro black coffee. 1000 total calories. I don’t feel hungry once and feel consistent surge of energy that makes me wanna push hard even at 3 hours into the ride. This in contrast to when I ate half the carbs and calories on the same exact ride and was miserable in the last hour of it every week. On the drinking side, as an example, mid 50’s on yesterday’s ride and I went through 4 full 26oz bottles of water (pure water no electrolytes in it. This changes in warmer weather). With all those carbs it’s essential to drink enough to help digestion.

Endurance ride problems are almost always issues of riding too hard or undernutrition IMO. Sorry if this doesn’t help and you’re doing all the right things but might be worth making sure!

Best of luck in the next big ride.

There absolutely were some egos flexing on that ride but 98% of us kept the pace easy until we hit the climbs. The middle, and biggest climb, everyone let loose and we all regrouped at the top. I was high zone 4 low zone 5 on that climb. As far as fueling is concerned, it’s obviously always possible I under-fueled so I’m not ruling that out. I say the pace picked up at the end, but that may have just been my perception. We hit a lot of rolling hills at mile 100 so the rest of the way in was very difficult to find a rhythm.
I think it’s just apparent I was overreaching with starting training almost immediately after that big ride.

[MI-XC]

@IceMan84

I say the pace picked up at the end, but that may have just been my perception. We hit a lot of rolling hills at mile 100 so the rest of the way in was very difficult to find a rhythm.

I remember towards the end of a MTB 100 after 10,000+ feet of climbing that I thought I was pushing a strong pace towards the end. I looked down at my head unit and my power meter reading was low z2, lol. You’d be surprised when you’re smoked how hard z2 can feel!

[Wirt]

I don’t know about your full ride history but I’ve been doing this only 6 years so might not be the best example to set. This season I have 90% focused on longer easier rides for a traditional base and I’m 2 months into it. I can comfortably say I couldn’t complete a 120 mile ride with a few “let loose” climbs as you mentioned. Most I’ll push on 10-15 minute 5-7% climbs on a 4 hour ride right now is mid to high tempo. If I don’t show discipline, I’m cracked. I probably need another 2 months of building strength on top of my endurance to do attacks etc in a century.

But yeah who knows. Everyone’s different. I would just take the data and move on.

As far as training start date, I think you’ll probably find out 2-3 weeks from now if you’ve done too much too soon. if you feel good, keep riding. if you can’t complete rides on week 3 or something, you know what happened. Again, take data and move on.

We put too much stake into following training 1to1. It’s great practice but if it feels too much, you can ignore the bike couple of days, rest up, and come back stronger. In the long run this doesn’t hurt your season. If anything it improves the quality of it!

[mulvers]

I know how the workout is going to go in the first couple of minutes of warmup. If a high cadence feels easy, without fail RPE will be low for workout. If high cadence feels uncomfortable the reverse.

[IceMan84]

@MI-XC

I remember towards the end of a MTB 100 after 10,000+ feet of climbing that I thought I was pushing a strong pace towards the end. I looked down at my head unit and my power meter reading was low z2, lol. You’d be surprised when you’re smoked how hard z2 can feel!

Dude 100%! lol! I was Z2 the rest of the way in my granny gears and was struggling

[OreoCookie]

@Wirt

• Nobody has the discipline, lack of fragile ego or attention to go endurance pace. There’s always someone showing off and rest trying to match and even if it’s not a big contrast, even 10 watts over what you normally ride means you can overcook over several hours once those excess watts start adding up.

That hasn’t been the experience with the group ride we are on. Our team usually has two group, a slow and a fast group, and we meet up at a café or temple. If you are in the slow group, we are all riding slowly. Although I concede that you should anticipate what the group ride is going to be really like before you join. Sometime hammerfests are great fun, and I am prepared to pay the price

@IceMan84

I was high zone 4 low zone 5 on that climb.

Yeah, it sounded like that from your initial post. That’s not a pace you can maintain in the middle of such a long ride without repercussions.

@IceMan84

As far as fueling is concerned, it’s obviously always possible I under-fueled so I’m not ruling that out. I say the pace picked up at the end, but that may have just been my perception. We hit a lot of rolling hills at mile 100 so the rest of the way in was very difficult to find a rhythm.

Yeah, I suspect that this is what happened. This sometimes happens to me when I am doing my first long ride of the year and I am not used to fueling outdoors. For some routes I really need to plan my pitstops and once I am too deep in carb debt, my body caps me at 2/3 FTP max. I reckon my body has then switched to fat burning. If someone goes beyond 2/3 of your FTP, it is sayonara as they say here. Fueling while riding in groups can be more difficult since you can’t force a large group to make a quick stop somewhere.

[rac1ngsnak3]

Maybe the first thing to figure out is how to get good at doing FTP tests. They should be done after a rest week without too much fatigue in the legs. Treat it like a race day. Get good sleep the night before and properly eat and hydrate.

This whole AI FTP is all hype and marketing. I don’t get why TR is spending resources on it. I don’t need an ML model of FTP testing to predict what I can do myself. And if you do a ramp test the stress is minimal and you can even do an easy recovery ride after or some intensity the next day.

When you say “any subsequent workouts using the scored FTP ends up being too easy,” what workouts are easy? At the beginning of the block or at the end? Workouts build and get more difficult through the block. Also what Training Plan are you doing? A Base block is going to be a lot easier than a Build block.

[IceMan84]

Welp… sometimes decisions are made for us. I ended coming down with whatever my son had this past weekend and I have been robbed of all energy to do much of anything. Definitely committed to a rest week now. After interacting with you fine folks on this forum, I have decided to dial my training down to the sustained build MV plan and I will start it with the ramp test instead of the AI detection. Maybe it’ll be close to what AI stated it is.

[Pbase]

I hope it’s light enough that you can look at the positives while you recover. Take the time to rest and be primed for your test, and you (hopefully) won’t be overtraining at your new level. Heal up and come in ready to crush!

[IceMan84]

Thanks for the encouragement!

[IceMan84]

Little update.

The week I took off was much needed! I got good rest, sleep went back to normal, heart rate and variability each improved.

I committed to the MV plan and I can already tell it’s going to suit my schedule much better. I did the ramp test and I still question the results. Went to failure and it calculated my FTP at 246. Far cry from AI detection at 281. Though I am apprehensive, I’m rolling with it. I must admit, the few workouts I’ve done that are at threshold or higher haven’t been easy but I feel they could’ve been a little more difficult. I’m answering the survey questions honestly though so I’m falling back on trusting the adaptive features.

Again, I appreciate all the previous input and advice. Here’s to getting stronger.

[HLaB]

Ive not done a ramp for a while IIRC it was circa 37w below AIFTPD. Whilst the ramp is good for the majority some just fall out of the Bell Curve and test too high or too low mostly due to their athletic profile. A well paced 20mins FTP test for me will deliver something slightly above AIFTPD and a mis paced 20mins FTP a little below. So Ive got confidence in AIFTPD, it feels right anyway for training, whether or not I could actually hold it for an hour

[IceMan84]

Yea I highly doubt I could hold 281 for 20 minutes let alone an hour.
I feel my FTP should be closer to 260 and have considered resetting everything and just manually inputting it. But like I said, I’m just gonna roll with what it is for now.

I also signed up with a team on Zwift to start doing team time trials on Thursdays so I think after a couple weeks (or when my next ramp test is due) of that I might have TR recalculate with the AI.

[bsladics]

Good decision. Do not…I repeat…do not manually adjust your FTP. roll with your current FTP, and allow adaptive training to do its thing and (more than likely), increase the progression levels of your workouts. You will make true gains, and more importantly, gain solid knowledge and intuition about what zones should feel like.

I learned the hard way in 2018, when I was “chasing numbers”, and manually upping my FTP. I got stronger, but it was fools gold, and didn’t realize my potential for the hours invested. BTW, I’m 51 years old, so definitely have learned about the importance of recovery, and training WITHIN my ability. the climb upwards is a slow and steady slog as a masters athlete, but gains WILL come. be patient. it just takes discipline and time.

note: AI FTP detection gave me a 2% increase recently (251-256 watts)…and for me, it is right on target. I am a triathlete, so I focus on sustained power…so my ceiling (FTP), is closer to my roof (VO2 max)…and therefore ramp test gives me a slightly lower FTP…but I historically would still roll with it.

[IceMan84]

I value other’s experiences and I am grateful for your input. I will heed it. Thank you!

[bsladics]

also, being a masters athlete, triathlete, and a fragile one at that…I stick with LV plans.