Getting quite close to the Hickson Protocol for vo2, which is 6x5min with 2min rests. Again, it was the short rests I found hard. I finally managed to complete it with the intervals at 112% and 2.5 minute rests.
How is your max determined?
Most recently, from the ramp test. I’ve also hit a similar max on several MTB rides/races over the past few years, and from some 2 min max tests I’ve done on my airdyne bike. I find I have to go pretty deep into anaerobic territory to get my HR up to max.
Sweet, this is something similar to what I had read in that you need to get to a very high effort as a warm up, then you need to go all out for a specific period after that. In running you’d do 3 or 4 3 min repeats on 1-2 min rest, then do a final 1 minute all out effort.
We really should not be reaching our max HR that often, as it should require an extremely hard effort to get it up that high, going fairly deep in the well to truly reach your max. My peak HR from both the 8 min, ramp and during some recent hard rides is 171, but I did get it up to 173, and then 175 when I was racing a single speed. I think on a really hot day it might be higher, but I’ve been using 175 and having good results. Bird the other day got me to 95% of that.
I’ve wondered if my max of 183 was a blip or a spike. I set it back last autumn on a climb on my MTB. my HR was going up gradually got to about 174ish then over 4/5 secs shot up to 183 before dropping back again. This would give 90% at 165bpm. My Garmin suggests my LTHR is 161 for what it’s worth. Do these figures stack up? The bip occurs just after 03:47 
Looks a bit blippy, considering you kept and even increased power but the HR came back down.
Reaching max HR is generally something you do just before collapsing and lying down for a bit. What’s the highest you’ve reached in a ramp test?
My N=1. The first ramp test I did (coming from 2 months off the bike due to a knee problem)
had my max pulse at 176. All subsequent ramps have been at 172 or 173. 15 yrs ago when I was actively racing it was 10 points higher. My 40k tt pulse was mid 150’s. Currently just shy of 65 years old
Actually, the rest interval is highly relevant. The goal of the short rest is to not allow full recovery, so that when you go again at slightly over FTP, you will raise your HR into the 90% of max zone.
I created the Seiler style intervals in the Polarized Training Group and have been doing them for years. The first two intervals are always manageable and it is usually the second half of the third interval where things get hard. The last interval should always be hard.
The big issue is that Seiler’s definition of FTP is quite different from TR’s definition. He uses a 60 min time trial to determine the rider’s FTP and then goes with ~108% of that for the 8 min intervals. TR’s ramp test FTP usually gives me, a rider with a preference to burn carbs, an FTP about 5% higher. That small difference could be enough to make the RPE unbearable at the end and cause a rider to be unable to finish the workout. BTW, I did one 60 min TT to calibrate my FTP with the TR measurement to figure that out.
For that reason, I recently adjusted the FTP percentage in the 4/8s down from 108% to 105% so that a rider could use the TR FTP results and hopefully find that optimal spot where the heart rates get up into the 90% of max range while still being able to finish the workout.
If you are new to longer VO2 max intervals, I suggest starting with the 4/2 intervals and get used to effort. you can do 7 or 8 or these intervals in a workout and the additional two minute rest periods will help make the workout doable. When you are able to do these workouts and your heart rate no longer gets up to 90% of max before the end of the session, consider going to longer intervals, i.e. 5x 6/2 or 4x 8/2, before raising your FTP.
I don’t do the ramp test as I get my FTP/Threshold from Breakthroughs on Xert and use that on TR. Max on my last Breakthrough was 170
Might be worth doing it as an experiment, even if just to see what you can push your heart rate to in a controlled environment? I’m pretty sure that 183 is a blip and too high - my guess would be that your max is in the mid to high 170s and that 165 you hit in the 6min intervals was more like 92-94% of max.
As my attempts above have shown, even 105% of TR ramp test FTP has been a bit high for me - especially when comparing my heart rate with Seiler’s test subjects. After I’ve been through a little block of racing and get some rest I’ll start one with a baseline of 103% and adjust on the fly according to what HR is doing.
Presumably they have continued allow improvements if you have kept doing them? Would it be possible to outline your progress whilt using them @steveh67?
I’ve been eagerly keeping track of the various polarized/Seiler posts and would say I’ve listened to Seiler interviews so much, he is appearing in my dreams…
But what I struggle to understand is how these types of workouts fit within your weekly and seasonal training planning? Should you do this workout once or twice a week (assuming you do 2 key workouts a week)? Do you do a 4 week block of 4 minute intervals, then 4 weeks of 8 minutes, then 4 weeks of 16 weeks (I think Seiler referred to this on one of the Velonews pods, but at this point, I could have made that up)? If you do that progression, then what? Start again at the beginning with a new improved FTP/effort level?
I feel like the answer to all these questions is going to be “it depends…”
Yep. Me also. I did Washington last night. 4x7 at 105%. HR averaged 95% in the last interval. Got up to 98% by the end. I barely finished it.
There is a 4x8 @105% workout in the polarized training group. It’s about right assuming your FTP is correct.
Actually, if you listen to the interviews, he uses short rest intervals as that’s what most his athletes needed before they were ready to go again. As with all rest intervals, they should be long enough for you to be fully rested for the next one. For those who aren’t elite athletes, this may well be longer than 2 minutes.
Last evening indoor ride data for 4 x 5 min with 3 min rest at 105% based on TR last RAMP test FTP estimate of 225. MLSS when in good shape is typically 235w-240w and my best 40kms have averaged same. Current FTP is down due to training focus and coming back from a big injury last season and focus on building short term power.
Anywho…
Averaged 237-240 watts for the 4x5 efforts and it was a good work but no lingering effects today and was able to do the work. Extending to 4 x 8 seems reachable in near term.
DATA from 4 x5 !!!
Max HR = 172 BPM from a very hard outdoor time trial last season. Consistent with prior efforts.
Recorded time at heart rates
16:00 min at HR > 150 (87%)
12:00 min at HR > 153 (89%)
10:30 min at HR > 155 (90%)
Max HR for workout 165 (96%)
Assume extending these from 4x5 to 4 x 8 and would expect to see 22-25 min with HR >90%
So, with a decent FTP estimate and some historic information, 4 x 8 at roughly 105% is certainly doable. Not easy, not fun, but doable. I could see where doing a good long block of 4 x 8 x 105% twice a week coupled with longer Z2 would yield results.
Am not going to maniacally commit to 4x8 twice a week for the duration of summer as I want to enjoy riding my bike. But will work up to 4 x 8 for indoor efforts and try to do once a week through fall. This winter can definitely see using a polarized plan based around 4x8 twice a week to rebuild FTP in advance of race season 2020.
C ’ ya!
-Mark
I’ve gone with a custom 4x8 with first 4min at 105% and second 4min at 100%. HR gets up to 90% max in the first half (bit more in the later intervals) and stays there in the second half. Just about doable for me at current ramp test determined FTP.
